Ched Evans to train with Sheffield United

[not spavin]

dont think hes defending a rapist but questioning whether he has or has not paid his debt to society. Like all other criminals - he ha and should be allowed to get on with earning his living in the way he knows how. So if he gets found to have been wrongly convicted i expect you and all the other evans haters and bandwaggoners to post up your apologies but i wont hold my breath - thats is if he is found wrongly convicted i hasten to add

You're missing the fact that he has already had an appeal rejected.

If he puts evidence forward that blows the case open then I'll be happy to apologise. However, his defence doesn't extend much beyond "I don't think it was rape". He largely agrees with the narrative of the prosecution.

And the point you're missing is that few convicted rapists get to pick up their career where they left off. Most people aren't willing to work with a rapist, and employers are entitled to take criminal records into account.

If you had a business, would you employ a rapist? A murderer? A woman who fabricated a rape claim?

I don't understand why people are so upset about it to be honest. He was tried, convicted and sentenced and then served that sentence. Evans has done his time and is free to be part of our society again, which means getting a job and his profession just happens to be football. Unless you are related to the lass or know her it's none of your f***ing business what he does now he's out of prison.

But it's your business?

 

[Northern Tiger]

I don't think anyone's defending a rapist here - he's been defended in court and was convicted. I'm pretty sure we all agree that rape is very bad and rapists deserve to be punished. Having been convicted, he's served his time though so why should he continue to be punished for the rest of his life?

He's not being punished for the rest of his life, there are just some jobs that aren't appropriate for a sex offender to do and being a footballer is one of them and a privilege that he should lose. I'm not saying he should just sit on benefits for the rest of his life and be subjected to constant abuse but that there are other jobs he can do, for example his father in law is a millionaire who has said he'll give him a job in his firm if he can't find a new club so that would be a perfect solution in this case away from the public spotlight where he can more quietly reintegrate more back into society.

Or he could have kept his head down and and say nothing until his next verdict was given and if found innocent then he could rejoin a football club but thinking he could just rejoin United without any opposition to him is extremely naive and he should have been prepared for it.

 

[Abdoujaparov]

SUFC clearly want to re-employ him but are prevented from doing so by the media circus that has been whipped up by the feminist/politically correct brigade.

Or, another way of looking at it, there wouldn't be all this fuss if he hadn't raped that girl.

He's out of prison and free to look for work wherever he feels fit, but equally Sheffield United and their fans are free to be reluctant to offer a convicted rapist a contract.

 

[Sweeper]

Are you reading court documents, or the arguments put forward by Evans' friends?

I can't understand how anyone can become pro-Evans if they're reading the court documents.

Genuinely flabbergasted by most of that.

The fact that you think comparing rape of a 19 year old to rape of a 12 year old is ridiculous" suggested me that you're massively underestimating just how serious rape is.

That's absolute rubbish - and completely in keeping with your "fall-back" approach throughout this thread of accusing anyone you don't agree with of being a rapist-sympathiser. I do not in any way condone rape and I consider Evans a rapist, him having been convicted by a court. I agree that what he did was very wrong. However, you seem to be suggesting that to appreciate how serious rape is = demanding lifelong villification for people that are convicted. I'm sorry but that's just wrong - we have laws in this country and people are sentenced according to their crimes. My personal belief is that he has served his time and should be able to get on with his life, subject to any ongoing restrictions imposed by law (of which losing the right to continue his career is not one). That certainly doesn't make me a "rapist-sympathiser".

If you think the two offences that you've described are one in the same then you want to get onto the get onto the law-makers in this country, as they are two different offences in law with two very different sentencing parameters

 

[andymcnish]

He's hardly Jimmy Savile. He shagged an adult who, in his opinion had consented to sex, yet in the opinion of the judiciary was over some invisible line where she was incapable of consent.

If guilty, which I doubt, he's not in the same league as Luke McCormick, who is freely plying his trade.

The big difference here is the case has become a hobby-horse for feminists.

This is the problem right here - Evans thinks the same way as you do - he simply can't admit or see he did anything wrong - 'If she's more or less conscious and doesn't scream no then it's OK. I'm Ched Eavns so I'm doing her a favour. She's a slapper anyway' is exactly how it come across.

You're right to some extent of course - he's no Saville and footballers like Lee Hughes, Marlon King and Woodgate have come back into the English game after pretty nasty criminal acts - but the continued hounding of his victim and total lack of self-awareness or contrition (and refusal to accept that the law is as it is and not as he thinks it should be) is what is making him this toxic now.

 

[Purrfect South]

And plenty of women take the opposite angle:

http://www.theguardian.com/media/sh...udy-finnigan-please-dont-apologise-ched-evans

Fuck off yourself.

Some do, but far less than you would like to imagine. I can guarantee that if that drunk girl in that hotel room was her daughter, she'd have a different view on it. It's easy to slag off women for getting drunk, and leaving themselves vunlerable, when men are doing the same thing too. If a lad was set upon and robbed when he was too drunk to put up a fight, who's fault would it be?

This is the problem right here - Evans thinks the same way as you do - he simply can't admit or see he did anything wrong - 'If she's more or less conscious and doesn't scream no then it's OK. I'm Ched Eavns so I'm doing her a favour. She's a slapper anyway' is exactly how it come across.

You're right to some extent of course - he's no Saville and footballers like Lee Hughes, Marlon King and Woodgate have come back into the English game after pretty nasty criminal acts - but the continued hounding of his victim and total lack of self-awareness or contrition (and refusal to accept that the law is as it is and not as he thinks it should be) is what is making him this toxic now.

This

 

[Morse]

This is the problem right here - Evans thinks the same way as you do - he simply can't admit or see he did anything wrong - 'If she's more or less conscious and doesn't scream no then it's OK. I'm Ched Eavns so I'm doing her a favour. She's a slapper anyway' is exactly how it come across.

He shouldn't have shagged her, and any decent bloke wouldn't have been there in the first place to find himself in that situation.
Or any decent woman, for that matter...

Some do, but far less than you would like to imagine. I can guarantee that if that drunk girl in that hotel room was her daughter, she'd have a different view on it. It's easy to slag off women for getting drunk, and leaving themselves vunlerable, when men are doing the same thing too. If a lad was set upon and robbed when he was too drunk to put up a fight, who's fault would it be?

If he was buying drugs and the dealer robbed him, partly his for putting himself in a dodgy situation. Clean hands and all that.
What happened to personal responsibility for one's safety?
No decent girl would have been in this situation, and presumably the writer of that article's daughter is decent.

Drunk bloke shags drunk lass, the bloke's a rapist. Sexual discrimination at it finest. What if the situation were reversed? Would she have been convicted? No chance.
He shouldn't have done what he did, but neither should she. The message to other lasses is they can freely have sex with footballers, and if they're hammered, they can go to the police. No self respect, no sense of personal responsibility.

 

[Deleted member 27751]

For once I agree with the PFA's view - why should football take a different view to the law of the land?

Football has a hugely inflated opinion of itself.

The law says he is free and can do what he wants. Not sure why the moral compass that is football (!) should have higher standards than the law?

 

[Abdoujaparov]

Drunk bloke shags drunk lass, the bloke's a rapist. Sexual discrimination at it finest. What if the situation were reversed? Would she have been convicted? No chance.
He shouldn't have done what he did, but neither should she. The message to other lasses is they can freely have sex with footballers, and if they're hammered, they can go to the police. No self respect, no sense of personal responsibility.

Isn't it a bit more complicated than that, more like drunk girl shags drunk lad A, having met him earlier in the evening. Drunk lad A is cleared of all charges.

Drunk lad (was Evans drunk? Honest question, I can't remember from what I've read) B turns up at 4am, shags drunk girl despite having never met her until seconds before shagging her, then runs away straight after, escaping through a fire exit. Drunk lad B is convicted of rape.

 

[mad hatter]

You're missing the fact that he has already had an appeal rejected.

If he puts evidence forward that blows the case open then I'll be happy to apologise. However, his defence doesn't extend much beyond "I don't think it was rape". He largely agrees with the narrative of the prosecution.

And the point you're missing is that few convicted rapists get to pick up their career where they left off. Most people aren't willing to work with a rapist, and employers are entitled to take criminal records into account.

If you had a business, would you employ a rapist? A murderer? A woman who fabricated a rape claim?



But it's your business?

No mate, it's none of my business either. I just can't understand why some people are so obsessed by this, I just think it's time we all moved on.

 

[Morse]

Isn't it a bit more complicated than that, more like drunk girl shags drunk lad A, having met him earlier in the evening. Drunk lad A is cleared of all charges.

Drunk lad (was Evans drunk? Honest question, I can't remember from what I've read) B turns up at 4am, shags drunk girl despite having never met her until seconds before shagging her, then runs away straight after, escaping through a fire exit. Drunk lad B is convicted of rape.

I agree in this case, but I meant hypothetically.

 

[Abdoujaparov]

I agree in this case, but I meant hypothetically.

Ah, fair enough.

 

[Deleted member 22590]

He's hardly Jimmy Savile. He shagged an adult who, in his opinion had consented to sex, yet in the opinion of the judiciary was over some invisible line where she was incapable of consent.

If guilty, which I doubt, he's not in the same league as Luke McCormick, who is freely plying his trade.

The big difference here is the case has become a hobby-horse for feminists.

And Saville is hardly Hitler. Nonsensical point really. He's a convicted rapist mate- rape is a nasty, nasty offence with no exceptions.

 

[elder]

I keep saying, he needs to move overseas if he wants to play football.

depending on the country but as a convicted rapist he may not be eligible for a visa, so choices will be limited. his father in law has said he'll give him a job if he can't get a contract with a club.

 

[Purrfect South]

He shouldn't have shagged her, and any decent bloke wouldn't have been there in the first place to find himself in that situation.
Or any decent woman, for that matter...



If he was buying drugs and the dealer robbed him, partly his for putting himself in a dodgy situation. Clean hands and all that.
What happened to personal responsibility for one's safety?
No decent girl would have been in this situation, and presumably the writer of that article's daughter is decent.

Drunk bloke shags drunk lass, the bloke's a rapist. Sexual discrimination at it finest. What if the situation were reversed? Would she have been convicted? No chance.
He shouldn't have done what he did, but neither should she. The message to other lasses is they can freely have sex with footballers, and if they're hammered, they can go to the police. No self respect, no sense of personal responsibility.

It wasn't Evans who she went to the hotel with, drunk or not. Why should a lass who's taken up with a lad have to fend his mate off, who wants to join in. No decent lad would pick up a lass, then want to play sharesies. There's drunk lasses shagging lads all over the country every weekend. Those lasses come from all sorts of backgrounds, including TV presenters daughters. They don't however expect to shag more than the bloke they're with. This is when you stray into dodgy territory, and to blame it on the lass is unfair.

 

[the sleeping giant]

I don't have strong opinions one way or the other. But I wonder how the lynch mob would feel if an appeal was successful! People are very judgemental and have very black and white opinions without considering the many shades of grey there are in most people's lives and decisions.

I make no bones about it, mate. If he appeals successfully then he has every right to resume his career - as creepy and as vile as his actions were on that night.

Trust me, I'm a long way from taking a simple black n white view (no pun intended) on most things. I know from experience that life is rarely that straightforward.

But what offends me here is that this is a really straightforward discussion in my view. A professional footballer is a privileged position and a convicted rapist morally deserves no such role. I've yet to hear a counter view that really shows an understanding of the severity of his (proven) crime.

What did you think of Di Canio joining out of interest?

I don't think many football clubs represent the area anymore, if pushed I could say 1-2 of our players remotely represent the people.

I accept all of your points btw.

I'm not going to answer that as I'm still trying to work out how we've just jumped from abhorrent sex crime to the complexities of Italian political history.

 

[elder]

Are you reading court documents, or the arguments put forward by Evans' friends?

I can't understand how anyone can become pro-Evans if they're reading the court documents.

Genuinely flabbergasted by most of that.

The fact that you think comparing rape of a 19 year old to rape of a 12 year old is "ridiculous" suggested me that you're massively underestimating just how serious rape is.

i've read the court documents, also seen the cctv footage and i don't think i would have convicted him, that doesn't mean i either support him or blame her. i appreciate she fell in the pizza shop but again the footage of her entering the hotel is very clear. she's lucid, able to walk unaided, returns outside to get the pizza etc... the court documents also clearly state that when evans entered the room he asked if he could join in and she replied 'yes'...

'if' she'd had to be poured out of the cab and carried into the room then sure that may be a different story, but it isn't. the judge and jury both agreed that she was not in a fit state to consent, i'm really not sure if i agree with that and that is my opinion. opinions differ. none of us know what really went on except the 3 in the room (and possibly the 2 at the window but who knows what they saw when and if the footage they may have tells another story).

rape is indeed a very serious crime. the stigma is carried with the perpetrator well after the sentence is served and rightly so. i'd have to be 100% certain of a person's guilt before convicting. i'm not sure i'm 100% in this case.

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

I make no bones about it, mate. If he appeals successfully then he has every right to resume his career - as creepy and as vile as his actions were on that night.

Trust me, I'm a long way from taking a simple black n white view (no pun intended) on most things. I know from experience that life is rarely that straightforward.

But what offends me here is that this is a really straightforward discussion in my view. A professional footballer is a privileged position and a convicted rapist morally deserves no such role. I've yet to hear a counter view that really shows an understanding of the severity of his (proven) crime.



I'm not going to answer that as I'm still trying to work out how we've just jumped from abhorrent sex crime to the complexities of Italian political history.

I wasn't comparing the two, just you mentioned the club as a representative of the local people.

 

[andymcnish]

i've read the court documents, also seen the cctv footage and i don't think i would have convicted him, that doesn't mean i either support him or blame her. i appreciate she fell in the pizza shop but again the footage of her entering the hotel is very clear. she's lucid, able to walk unaided, returns outside to get the pizza etc... the court documents also clearly state that when evans entered the room he asked if he could join in and she replied 'yes'...

'if' she'd had to be poured out of the cab and carried into the room then sure that may be a different story, but it isn't. the judge and jury both agreed that she was not in a fit state to consent, i'm really not sure if i agree with that and that is my opinion. opinions differ. none of us know what really went on except the 3 in the room (and possibly the 2 at the window but who knows what they saw when and if the footage they may have tells another story).

rape is indeed a very serious crime. the stigma is carried with the perpetrator well after the sentence is served and rightly so. i'd have to be 100% certain of a person's guilt before convicting. i'm not sure i'm 100% in this case.

Except she fell over in the Pizza shop, had had at least 15 shorts in a couple of hours, the night porter in the hotel said she was 'extremely drunk' and McDonald himself said she need 'looking after as she is sick' as he left. And she woke up with no memory in a pool of her own piss in the morning. But if you think you know better after watching 5 seconds of CCTV footage that's fine I guess...

 

[elder]

Except she fell over in the Pizza shop, had had at least 15 shorts in a couple of hours, the night porter in the hotel said she was 'extremely drunk' and McDonald himself said she need 'looking after as she is sick' as he left. And she woke up with no memory in a pool of her own piss in the morning. But if you think you know better after watching 5 seconds of CCTV footage that's fine I guess...

i'm not saying i know better i'm saying i'm not 100% sure as there seems to some inconsistency. as a lawyer i thought you would appreciate that. i find it strange that everyone wants to turn this into an argument and bring emotion to the table and try to belittle others with a different opinion.

yes she fell over, yes she said evans could join in...