David Irving

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I'm not really sure why such deep research as Irving is alleged to have encouraged is needed. You don't need to be an academic to realise that the handles of the ventilation shutters for a shower block should be on the inside rather than where they were, the outside.

The entire transcript of the Belsen trial is enough to convince anyone that the claims of being short of food, water and medicines was not as widespread as is often claimed. The British Army established a water supply in 2 days of entering Belsen and the nearby German Army barracks had a bakery with enough supplies in stock to produce tens of thousand of loaves of bread a day.

I'm not against challenging the accepted historical details but Irving doesn't, what he writes is lapped up by those who share his right wing perspective and they will never bother reading any other research. He adds nothing to the debate except propaganda.

Making assumptions and taking peoples word for stuff isn't part of the historical method. The bakery claim for example would need to be investigated a) to prove it's veracity and b) to understand why this food wasn't sent to the Belsen camp (I can think of 2 possible reasons off the top of my head).

Citation needed for the ventilation shutter claim too - does it actually exist, where is it from, was it part of a gas chamber, was it part of a gas chamber that was used to kill people etc.

 

[Roker Ender]

and illegal

Not in the UK and most countries of the world but it is illegal in some European countries

 

[Fossildog]

Not in the UK and most countries of the world but it is illegal in some European countries

yep. Crazy

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

Making assumptions and taking peoples word for stuff isn't part of the historical method. The bakery claim for example would need to be investigated a) to prove it's veracity and b) to understand why this food wasn't sent to the Belsen camp (I can think of 2 possible reasons off the top of my head).

Citation needed for the ventilation shutter claim too - does it actually exist, where is it from, was it part of a gas chamber, was it part of a gas chamber that was used to kill people etc.

The bakery claim was made in open court during the Belsen trial by senior British officers in the witness box under oath. It isn't an assumption on my part and I have no need to doubt their integrity. The same regarding the supply of water where existing water pools had decomposing bodies floating in them. The internes had reverted to cannibalism. All of this is well documented in the trial transcripts. I refer you to extracts from the evidence of a British subject Harold Le Druillenec under examination by Colonel Backhouse:

To begin with a French Colonel, an old friend of mine from the previous camp, and myself turned into one of the few beds, three-tiered bunks they were, in the hut. Some five minutes later some severe blows on the head made us realise that we were not supposed to be there. We gathered from this language of blows that these beds were reserved for the officers and orderlies amongst the prisoners themselves. The Colonel and I made a point of finding some other French people - there was safety in being in groups - and to sit with legs wide apart and other people sitting in between in a group on the floor. Sleep was impossible; the whole hut I should describe as a babel gone mad. Actually that proved to be my luckiest night in Belsen because the next day or two the next Kommandos (work squad) were sent in and had to sleep in this already overcrowded hut. The floor was wet and abominably foul and we had to lay in that but we were allowed two very tattered blankets.

Boards were usually put across two rafters by some enterprising prisoners and rather than sleep on the rather murderous floor below they slept across these narrow boards placed across two of the rafters of the hut. Well, most of the people in the hut were suffering from dysentery and as many of those people on the boards were suffering from this I think I can leave the rest to your imagination. Well, it was possible (to move out of the way) but if they had they would probably have never found a place to get down again so after a little experience they learned it was better not to. May I add that it was humanly impossible to get out (of the hut) since the whole floor was just one mass of humanity and it would have meant walking across people in order to get out; in any case the door was shut and people were laying against it, but I do think but I would not swear to this, that it was locked as well. Well, it is rather difficult to put into words (the atmosphere inside that hut); I do not think it is humanly possible to describe that - it was vile. I think I have told you sufficient to make you realise that the smell was abominable; in fact it was the worst feature of Belsen Camp. A night in those huts was something I think maybe a man like Dante might describe but I simply cannot put into words.

The next morning about half-past three we were roused and sent out of the hut, again the language of blows being the only way of giving orders......after we had been out on the appell, or roll-call for some time the next morning the hut was cleared of the superficial debris, litter, etc., and then some, maybe seven or eight dead were taken out and put in the trench - I may add a latrine trench - which ran the whole length of most of these huts.....for the first three or four days I was in Belsen we had nothing in particular to do; the appell used to last from about half-past three - I am judging times, I had no watch of course - till about eight or nine o’clock in the morning which in itself was a terrible strain. The appell is the normal concentration camp roll-call during which time you are supposed to stand in ranks of five, I presume to make the ranks easy to count, and you are counted and then counted again ad infinitum for some hours; apparently no two men could make the total the same.....you had to stand to attention (and if you moved) you received the usual blow on the head. May I add that the weapon used for the blow was a stick some four or five feet long and about one and a half inches thick; it was usually a very hard blow.....There were one or two rather startling events, of course. One I have in mind particularly was seeing my first friend not quite dead brought out of the hut in the morning and lined up with the people actually dead; then later on still alive dragged off to the hut to the east of Block 13, which was being used as a mortuary.

I started work, I think, on the fifth day I was at Belsen. we were all herded into this yard to the east of that hut. Again by means of blows, the language we understood pretty well by then, we were made to understand that we had to drag these dead bodies a certain route to what we were to find to be large burial pits. The procedure was to take some strands of humid blanket from a heap, which was a heap where the effects and clothing of the dead had been put at the south east of the yard, tie these strips of blanket or clothing to the ankles and wrists of the corpses and then proceed to walk to the pits.....Firstly, we found the shortest corpse possible; they were all emaciated and more thin than anything I had ever imagined before, so by getting the shortest we were bound to get the lightest. Secondly, choose one that was not too black.....Along this road stationed at intervals were orderlies to see that the flow of dead to the pits carried on smoothly. Particularly numerous were they near the kitchen, which passed on our right, and the reservoir water nearby. One of the most cruel things in this particular work was the fact that we passed this water regularly on every trip, and despite the fact we were dying of thirst we were not allowed to touch it or get anywhere near. Nor were we allowed to get to the heap of swede peelings near the kitchen. A few of those would have made us a very fine meal indeed in the state we were in.

During the dragging of the dead to the pits I noticed on many occasions a very strange wound at the back of the thigh of many of these dead. First of all I dismissed it as a gunshot wound at close quarters, but after seeing a few more I realised it did not make sense, and asked a friend of mine who was with me pulling one of the dead. He was surprised that I did not know and promptly told me that many prisoners were cutting chunks out of these bodies to eat. On my very next visit to the mortuary I actually saw a prisoner whip out a knife, cut a portion out of the leg of a dead body and put it quickly into his mouth, naturally frightened of being seen in the act of doing so. I leave it to your imagination gentlemen, to realise to what state the prisoners were reduced for men to chance eating these bits of flesh taken out of black corpses. You did not dare to fall out, but many collapsed on the way, just lay dead by the roadside or died by the roadside. They in turn were lifted by a team of four delegated for the job and in turn taken to the pits. People died like flies on the way to these pits. They did not have the necessary energy to drag even those very light bodies.

Well, you were bound to get hit in the normal course of the day. To begin with you are bound to get hit on the head in the morning getting out of the hut, whether you were out first or out last. You were bound to be hit in getting to the mortuary, too, and all along the way to the pits. They were just odd blows here and there, given, I suppose, for the fun of the thing - I do not know. One ceases to question in a concentration camp why things happen; one is taught from the very beginning just to accept things as they are and never wonder why things happen.

Of course Belsen was a hospital camp but there was no duty of care, in fact the opposite, just total indifference at best or hatred. If you want citations, why not read the trial conscript yourself.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The bakery claim was made in open court during the Belsen trial by senior British officers in the witness box under oath. It isn't an assumption on my part and I have no need to doubt their integrity. The same regarding the supply of water where existing water pools had decomposing bodies floating in them. The internes had reverted to cannibalism. All of this is well documented in the trial transcripts. I refer you to extracts from the evidence of a British subject Harold Le Druillenec under examination by Colonel Backhouse:

To begin with a French Colonel, an old friend of mine from the previous camp, and myself turned into one of the few beds, three-tiered bunks they were, in the hut. Some five minutes later some severe blows on the head made us realise that we were not supposed to be there. We gathered from this language of blows that these beds were reserved for the officers and orderlies amongst the prisoners themselves. The Colonel and I made a point of finding some other French people - there was safety in being in groups - and to sit with legs wide apart and other people sitting in between in a group on the floor. Sleep was impossible; the whole hut I should describe as a babel gone mad. Actually that proved to be my luckiest night in Belsen because the next day or two the next Kommandos (work squad) were sent in and had to sleep in this already overcrowded hut. The floor was wet and abominably foul and we had to lay in that but we were allowed two very tattered blankets.

Boards were usually put across two rafters by some enterprising prisoners and rather than sleep on the rather murderous floor below they slept across these narrow boards placed across two of the rafters of the hut. Well, most of the people in the hut were suffering from dysentery and as many of those people on the boards were suffering from this I think I can leave the rest to your imagination. Well, it was possible (to move out of the way) but if they had they would probably have never found a place to get down again so after a little experience they learned it was better not to. May I add that it was humanly impossible to get out (of the hut) since the whole floor was just one mass of humanity and it would have meant walking across people in order to get out; in any case the door was shut and people were laying against it, but I do think but I would not swear to this, that it was locked as well. Well, it is rather difficult to put into words (the atmosphere inside that hut); I do not think it is humanly possible to describe that - it was vile. I think I have told you sufficient to make you realise that the smell was abominable; in fact it was the worst feature of Belsen Camp. A night in those huts was something I think maybe a man like Dante might describe but I simply cannot put into words.

The next morning about half-past three we were roused and sent out of the hut, again the language of blows being the only way of giving orders......after we had been out on the appell, or roll-call for some time the next morning the hut was cleared of the superficial debris, litter, etc., and then some, maybe seven or eight dead were taken out and put in the trench - I may add a latrine trench - which ran the whole length of most of these huts.....for the first three or four days I was in Belsen we had nothing in particular to do; the appell used to last from about half-past three - I am judging times, I had no watch of course - till about eight or nine o’clock in the morning which in itself was a terrible strain. The appell is the normal concentration camp roll-call during which time you are supposed to stand in ranks of five, I presume to make the ranks easy to count, and you are counted and then counted again ad infinitum for some hours; apparently no two men could make the total the same.....you had to stand to attention (and if you moved) you received the usual blow on the head. May I add that the weapon used for the blow was a stick some four or five feet long and about one and a half inches thick; it was usually a very hard blow.....There were one or two rather startling events, of course. One I have in mind particularly was seeing my first friend not quite dead brought out of the hut in the morning and lined up with the people actually dead; then later on still alive dragged off to the hut to the east of Block 13, which was being used as a mortuary.

I started work, I think, on the fifth day I was at Belsen. we were all herded into this yard to the east of that hut. Again by means of blows, the language we understood pretty well by then, we were made to understand that we had to drag these dead bodies a certain route to what we were to find to be large burial pits. The procedure was to take some strands of humid blanket from a heap, which was a heap where the effects and clothing of the dead had been put at the south east of the yard, tie these strips of blanket or clothing to the ankles and wrists of the corpses and then proceed to walk to the pits.....Firstly, we found the shortest corpse possible; they were all emaciated and more thin than anything I had ever imagined before, so by getting the shortest we were bound to get the lightest. Secondly, choose one that was not too black.....Along this road stationed at intervals were orderlies to see that the flow of dead to the pits carried on smoothly. Particularly numerous were they near the kitchen, which passed on our right, and the reservoir water nearby. One of the most cruel things in this particular work was the fact that we passed this water regularly on every trip, and despite the fact we were dying of thirst we were not allowed to touch it or get anywhere near. Nor were we allowed to get to the heap of swede peelings near the kitchen. A few of those would have made us a very fine meal indeed in the state we were in.

During the dragging of the dead to the pits I noticed on many occasions a very strange wound at the back of the thigh of many of these dead. First of all I dismissed it as a gunshot wound at close quarters, but after seeing a few more I realised it did not make sense, and asked a friend of mine who was with me pulling one of the dead. He was surprised that I did not know and promptly told me that many prisoners were cutting chunks out of these bodies to eat. On my very next visit to the mortuary I actually saw a prisoner whip out a knife, cut a portion out of the leg of a dead body and put it quickly into his mouth, naturally frightened of being seen in the act of doing so. I leave it to your imagination gentlemen, to realise to what state the prisoners were reduced for men to chance eating these bits of flesh taken out of black corpses. You did not dare to fall out, but many collapsed on the way, just lay dead by the roadside or died by the roadside. They in turn were lifted by a team of four delegated for the job and in turn taken to the pits. People died like flies on the way to these pits. They did not have the necessary energy to drag even those very light bodies.

Well, you were bound to get hit in the normal course of the day. To begin with you are bound to get hit on the head in the morning getting out of the hut, whether you were out first or out last. You were bound to be hit in getting to the mortuary, too, and all along the way to the pits. They were just odd blows here and there, given, I suppose, for the fun of the thing - I do not know. One ceases to question in a concentration camp why things happen; one is taught from the very beginning just to accept things as they are and never wonder why things happen.

Of course Belsen was a hospital camp but there was no duty of care, in fact the opposite, just total indifference at best or hatred. If you want citations, why not read the trial conscript yourself.

I know where it comes from and I'm not even saying I disbelieve the testimony given. Just that it would need to be investigated further - were the owners of the bakery ever questioned for example? There is more than one reason that could explain why this food was not provided to the prisoners - you can't just assume one reason over another without investigation to back it up.

Also, still waiting for evidence that this ventilation shutter existed...

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

The owners of the bakery were the German Army as has already been mentioned. The same army camp became a hospital once the British arrived. Why not read the trial transcript which covers the bakery issue.

So if there is more than one reason why this food was not provided, as you have claimed, what are they? Or are you making assumptions yourself? Why should I go back through some of the most distressing descriptions in the history of the human race to provide you with citations when you cannot even follow up the one I have about the bakery.

What holocaust deniers do is refuse to look at the evidence themselves but instead constantly drag up the same old crap. I wonder why that is?

However, for the sake of clarity:

Major BERNEY
Fourth Day -Thursday, 20th September 1945
Examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE:

I am with 817 Military Government Detachment. On 15th April I was sent by Headquarters 8 Corps to Colonel Taylor of the Occupying Forces of the Belsen Camp. Colonel Taylor and Brigadier Glyn Hughes were in charge. On the next day I was told to find the nearest food store, which I did at the north of the Panzer Troop School about three kilometres from the camp. I found the Hauptmann in charge of the store who informed me that he was responsible for sending some food from his store to the camp - potatoes and turnips. He did not give me any reason as to why that was the only stuff supplied. I obtained a list of food in the store from him and remember there were 600 tons of potatoes, 120 tons of tinned meat, 30 tons of sugar, upwards of 20 tons of powdered milk; cocoa, grain, wheat and other foodstuffs.

Did you find whether there was a bakery there or not? - Yes. There is a very large bakery there with a capacity I was told of 60000 loaves a day which was completely staffed. It appeared to me that there was a very vast quantity of all the necessary materials available for making bread. The bakery is still working now and most of the staff are the same.

From your investigation of the stocks available, was there any reason why Camp No 1 should not have been supplied with food? - I cannot see any conceivable reason.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The owners of the bakery were the German Army as has already been mentioned. The same army camp became a hospital once the British arrived. Why not read the trial transcript which covers the bakery issue.

So if there is more than one reason why this food was not provided, as you have claimed, what are they? Or are you making assumptions yourself? Why should I go back through some of the most distressing descriptions in the history of the human race to provide you with citations when you cannot even follow up the one I have about the bakery.

What holocaust deniers do is refuse to look at the evidence themselves but instead constantly drag up the same old crap. I wonder why that is?

However, for the sake of clarity:

Major BERNEY
Fourth Day -Thursday, 20th September 1945
Examined by Colonel BACKHOUSE:

I am with 817 Military Government Detachment. On 15th April I was sent by Headquarters 8 Corps to Colonel Taylor of the Occupying Forces of the Belsen Camp. Colonel Taylor and Brigadier Glyn Hughes were in charge. On the next day I was told to find the nearest food store, which I did at the north of the Panzer Troop School about three kilometres from the camp. I found the Hauptmann in charge of the store who informed me that he was responsible for sending some food from his store to the camp - potatoes and turnips. He did not give me any reason as to why that was the only stuff supplied. I obtained a list of food in the store from him and remember there were 600 tons of potatoes, 120 tons of tinned meat, 30 tons of sugar, upwards of 20 tons of powdered milk; cocoa, grain, wheat and other foodstuffs.

Did you find whether there was a bakery there or not? - Yes. There is a very large bakery there with a capacity I was told of 60000 loaves a day which was completely staffed. It appeared to me that there was a very vast quantity of all the necessary materials available for making bread. The bakery is still working now and most of the staff are the same.

From your investigation of the stocks available, was there any reason why Camp No 1 should not have been supplied with food? - I cannot see any conceivable reason.

You don't have to clarify anything, I know what you're referring to. I'm not even saying that I agree with the likes of Irving on this subject. However, if you think your quotes above provide enough evidence to come to a conclusion on this issue you don't understand the historical method or research in general.

I don't care about the bakery anyway - what was that you mentioned before about a ventilation shutter? Not familiar with that claim - citation?

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

So more than 5 months after the liberation of Belsen, the bakery was still supplying bread with the stocks it had at the time of the British arrival.

I'm bothered about the bakery which is why I first mentioned it. Why are you not bothered about the bakery, when you claimed there were other reasons for not supplying bread.

What are those reasons?

 

[TwasOnTheFifthOfMay]

I find it fascinating that people think like this.

Do you indeed! That in itself is fascinating.

 

[Narraback]

@Harry Angstrom you haven't replied to my post #140

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

So more than 5 months after the liberation of Belsen, the bakery was still supplying bread with the stocks it had at the time of the British arrival.

I'm bothered about the bakery which is why I first mentioned it. Why are you not bothered about the bakery, when you claimed there were other reasons for not supplying bread.

What are those reasons?

Well the obvious reason is that the food was needed elsewhere and was being sent to soldiers and civilians. Any regime would prioritise soldiers and civilians over prisoners if push came to shove.

Why won't you provide a citation for the ventilation shutter? Or was that claim bullshit?

 

[Narraback]

Well the obvious reason is that the food was needed elsewhere and was being sent to soldiers and civilians. Any regime would prioritise soldiers and civilians over prisoners if push came to shove.

Why won't you provide a citation for the ventilation shutter? Or was that claim bullshit?

Are you now carrying on the Holocaust deniers argument?

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

Well the obvious reason is that the food was needed elsewhere and was being sent to soldiers and civilians. Any regime would prioritise soldiers and civilians over prisoners if push came to shove.

Why won't you provide a citation for the ventilation shutter? Or was that claim bullshit?

Have you made that "obvious" reason up? Is it just an assumption? So let's hear it from the horses mouth:

Major Berney Cross-examined by Major WINWOOD:

Did the Wehrmacht Captain indicate which other units he supplied rations to? - Yes, the Hungarian regiment, their families and the Wehrmacht troops in the camp.

Was the Captain also in charge of the bread store? - I do not know exactly but I gathered he was. I got no details of the daily issues of bread.

By the JUDGE ADVOCATE:

Was there any substantial number of mouths which had to be fed in the barrack area as distinct from what we have called No 1 and No 2 Concentration Camps? - Yes. The Hungarian and Wehrmacht troops, numbering in all about 3000.

Did you get anything from the conversation, or did you form the impression when talking to this Hauptmann that Kramer indented for what he wanted or that the Hauptmann sent down such food as he did when and how he liked? - I cannot remember the exact words of the conversation but the impression I got was that he had to send down a certain quantity in some sort of ration scale.

So we have a bakery that can produce 60,000 loaves of bread a day and which had enough supplies to last five months, that actually supplied bread for 3,000 Hungarian and German troops but was under no request to supply any to the camp under the direction of the commandant Kramer. They don't appear to have been supplying any others, either army or civilian, but simply sitting on enough supplies for 5 months to the much larger number of Belsen survivors.

We have plenty time to discuss the issues but let's focus on the bakery and supply of food to the camp's prisoners, who were in a hospital camp, if that is the word to describe somewhere people are brought to be left to die, provided the last ounce of strength was first taken from them in carrying the dead, until they themselves were simply added to the pit. Yet only 2 miles away is a food store and bakery that is clearly underworked and to which Kramer could request supplies that were being held back in abundance. That points firmly to Kramer rather than vague generic assumptions that has no substance.

Rather than this bakery being overwhelmed by a civilian and military need, do you accept this points the finger firmly at Kramer for the lack of sufficient food at the camp? What possible defence could Kramer provide? What possible defence could he offer for the lack of a water supply? Food and water, about as essential as it gets.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Have you made that "obvious" reason up? Is it just an assumption? So let's hear it from the horses mouth:

Major Berney Cross-examined by Major WINWOOD:

Did the Wehrmacht Captain indicate which other units he supplied rations to? - Yes, the Hungarian regiment, their families and the Wehrmacht troops in the camp.

Was the Captain also in charge of the bread store? - I do not know exactly but I gathered he was. I got no details of the daily issues of bread.

By the JUDGE ADVOCATE:

Was there any substantial number of mouths which had to be fed in the barrack area as distinct from what we have called No 1 and No 2 Concentration Camps? - Yes. The Hungarian and Wehrmacht troops, numbering in all about 3000.

Did you get anything from the conversation, or did you form the impression when talking to this Hauptmann that Kramer indented for what he wanted or that the Hauptmann sent down such food as he did when and how he liked? - I cannot remember the exact words of the conversation but the impression I got was that he had to send down a certain quantity in some sort of ration scale.

So we have a bakery that can produce 60,000 loaves of bread a day and which had enough supplies to last five months, that actually supplied bread for 3,000 Hungarian and German troops but was under no request to supply any to the camp under the direction of the commandant Kramer. They don't appear to have been supplying any others, either army or civilian, but simply sitting on enough supplies for 5 months to the much larger number of Belsen survivors.

We have plenty time to discuss the issues but let's focus on the bakery and supply of food to the camp's prisoners, who were in a hospital camp, if that is the word to describe somewhere people are brought to be left to die, provided the last ounce of strength was first taken from them in carrying the dead, until they themselves were simply added to the pit. Yet only 2 miles away is a food store and bakery that is clearly underworked and to which Kramer could request supplies that were being held back in abundance. That points firmly to Kramer rather than vague generic assumptions that has no substance.

Rather than this bakery being overwhelmed by a civilian and military need, do you accept this points the finger firmly at Kramer for the lack of sufficient food at the camp? What possible defence could Kramer provide? What possible defence could he offer for the lack of a water supply? Food and water, about as essential as it gets.

You're still not getting the point and I'm wary of coming across as if I agree with arguments used by Holocaust deniers.

The point is that the evidence available in this case is nowhere near enough to draw a conclusion about this bakery and the circumstances surrounding distribution of food, both in the case of Belsen and other camps. You've cited no primary sources or first-hand witness testimony (Major Berney can only speak for what he found when he liberated the camp, his testimony regarding what happened previous to that date is second person testimony and hearsay).

Now, about that ventilation shutter...

 

[Narraback]

You're still not getting the point and I'm wary of coming across as if I agree with arguments used by Holocaust deniers.

The point is that the evidence available in this case is nowhere near enough to draw a conclusion about this bakery and the circumstances surrounding distribution of food, both in the case of Belsen and other camps. You've cited no primary sources or first-hand witness testimony (Major Berney can only speak for what he found when he liberated the camp, his testimony regarding what happened previous to that date is second person testimony and hearsay).

Now, about that ventilation shutter...

That's exactly as you're coming across.

 

[Mercia Blackcat]

You're still not getting the point and I'm wary of coming across as if I agree with arguments used by Holocaust deniers.

The point is that the evidence available in this case is nowhere near enough to draw a conclusion about this bakery and the circumstances surrounding distribution of food, both in the case of Belsen and other camps. You've cited no primary sources or first-hand witness testimony (Major Berney can only speak for what he found when he liberated the camp, his testimony regarding what happened previous to that date is second person testimony and hearsay).

Now, about that ventilation shutter...

We certainly have some evidence. That the bakery was fully staffed and could produce 60,000 loaves a day. That apart from the camp, the bakery fed 3,000 in total of Hungarians (who guarded the perimeter and work details) and German troops stationed there. That the bakery and the food store had enough supplies to last for at least 5 months after the British liberation. That the German Captain in charge of the food store and bakery stated he supplied the Belsen camp as requested by the commandant Kramer who specified the ration level. That only potatoes and turnips were supplied according to that request. This is the testimony of a Major in the British Army giving evidence in a military court under oath after speaking to the German Captain in charge at the store. These allegations certainly point the finger at Kramer as the one that is directly responsible.

Josef Kramer cross examined by Colonel Backhouse:

You remember Ehlert, do you not? - Yes.

She was one of your own staff, was she not? - Yes.

Do you remember her saying: "I have often seen prisoners beaten at Belsen"? - Yes, but I am astonished that she did not report this to me.

Do you remember her saying the conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace? - Yes.

Do you remember her saying: "I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the increasing death rate to Kramer he replied 'Let them die, why should you care'"? - Firstly I do not see any reason why I should respond to a subordinate about the conditions of the camp, why should I give her any explanation about the conditions; secondly what she says my answer was is not true.

Now turn for a moment to the food. Did the prisoners get their entitlement in Belsen or did they not? - Yes, with the exception of bread.

Do you seriously say that is enough for somebody to live on? - I said already before that for healthy persons it would have been sufficient for a few weeks; for sick persons, however, it was not enough.

What was the ration? - Three quarters of a litre of food - soup.

And you think that was sufficient? - As I said, a healthy man could keep going on it for a few weeks, but it was not enough for sick people.

What special rations were provided for sick people? - With the exception of the diet, nothing.

Did you watch these people slowly starving and dying? - Yes. That is to say, I did not look at it, I saw from the daily reports that pointed out how many people were dying every day.

Did you see these people gradually dying of starvation and thirst? - Yes, I mentioned these facts in my letter to Obergruppenfuhrer Glucks. I told him things like that would be common.

Rosina Kramer, wife of Josef Kramer, examined by Major Winwood:

Did your husband ever speak to you about the food in Belsen? - I was present at a conversation between my husband and Vogler, the official who was responsible for the food, and I remember that my husband said, "What those people get is not enough to live on and too much to die."

Kramer, unable to keep back his inherent Nazi arrogance, confirms the conditions in the camp with his retort about a subordinate "Firstly I do not see any reason why I should respond to a subordinate about the conditions of the camp, why should I give her any explanation about the conditions.* Sensitive chap isn't he. "Let them die, why should you care?"

Kramer was found guilty and hanged.

50,000 died at the hospital camp of Belsen.

 

[Harry Angstrom]

Would you like more? I'm sure I can find some.

Yes and that was done with the proviso that if it incites violence or defames and damages people then their should be redress. Which I have cited a number of times in here.

I am interested in what things people would thoughts people would suppress and have stated that there shouldn't be anything we are afraid to have discussed in a modern society. You seem not to want to discuss it but state that if I don't like it, I should vote for someone else or leave.

@Harry Angstrom you haven't replied to my post #140

What the fuck.

Do you indeed! That in itself is fascinating.

I do indeed. What others think is fascinating.

I believe people should be treated like adults and be allowed to make up their own minds about stuff. Also, that any suppression of thoughts is a bad thing and makes us a less civilised and weaker society.

 

[Cockney Mackem]

Making assumptions and taking peoples word for stuff isn't part of the historical method. The bakery claim for example would need to be investigated a) to prove it's veracity and b) to understand why this food wasn't sent to the Belsen camp (I can think of 2 possible reasons off the top of my head).

Citation needed for the ventilation shutter claim too - does it actually exist, where is it from, was it part of a gas chamber, was it part of a gas chamber that was used to kill people etc.

All this is true, however I still maintain that WW2 and Hitler are such huge subjects and historians are constantly evaluating and debating that there's no need for a provocateur like Irving to get involved. He's quite entitled to participate in the debate of course but he's getting far too much credit for something that would have happened without him and which is the opposite of what he wanted to achieve.

When I studied the Holocaust for my degree there were multiple debates raging between historians about various aspects of the subject so I don't think there's this cozy consensus with no one questioning each other.

 

[Narraback]

Yes and that was done with the proviso that if it incites violence or defames and damages people then their should be redress. Which I have cited a number of times in here.

I am interested in what things people would thoughts people would suppress and have stated that there shouldn't be anything we are afraid to have discussed in a modern society. You seem not to want to discuss it but state that if I don't like it, I should vote for someone else or leave.



What the fuck.



I do indeed. What others think is fascinating.

I believe people should be treated like adults and be allowed to make up their own minds about stuff. Also, that any suppression of thoughts is a bad thing and makes us a less civilised and weaker society.

The posts I quoted show you completely contradicting yourself ffs. You weren't asking what people thought should be banned, you are clearly saying that people should be allowed to say anything. You then go on to say we should have laws which restrict what people say. Bizarre.

 

[Harry Angstrom]

The posts I quoted show you completely contradicting yourself ffs. You weren't asking what people thought should be banned, you are clearly saying that people should be allowed to say anything. You then go on to say we should have laws which restrict what people say. Bizarre.

I say we should have laws against people inciting violence. Just like we have laws that allow people to get redress for defamation. I have said this throughout the thread.

People's thoughts and ideas should not be suppressed.

What do you disagree with?