Is feminism sexist?

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Lewberry pie said:
I'm not talking about that I'm talking about the original point of this thread which was about whether feminists are after fair play or just after their own interests.


Why would they get less pay for doing the same job?
I'm inclined to agree with your second bit except it's not a competition, if someone wants to plod along with a menial job then fair play to them as well because they're doing what they want
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That's what gender pay equality is all about. There are jobs that are less desirable from a female point of view, which is shown through lower application rates (I know there are social issues involved) and these tend to be jobs that involve hard graft in often demanding conditions.

People plodding along in menial jobs are men and women equally. Like you said it's their choice.
 
Theres a lass at our place who has rocketed up the ladder. Coincidentally at the same time those interviewing have rocketed up her. Fair play to her :lol:

Her Ivory Tower said:
With this firmly in mind, what are your thoughts on "Asda Women"?
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Im too lazt to trail through the thread. Whats the crack with ASDA women? If its a debate about it always being women on the adverts slapping themselves on their beautiful derriers then im all for it.
 
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pillars of hercules said:
The ASDA pay equality thing is interesting. Would a woman working in the warehouse receive less pay than a man doing the same job, or does a man on the checkout get more pay than a female?

I believe in equality of all people and especially getting the same oportunities in life, but believe that more often than not women often take the easy option and that's why they are in lower paid jobs. Good on those that don't by the way as they have my upmost respect.
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its interesting that equal pay is one of the inequalities most vociferously championed by feminists, and yet when the pay equality gap in favour of women in the lower age bracket is mentioned, it is branded as 'fair':lol:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-women-earning-more-men

article by Gaby Hinsliff (feminist maybe?)
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"Real" feminism isn't. It's just a continuation of the suffragette movement, and people wanting equality in all areas of life. Which is fine and something everyone should be behind. By rights - and certainly in the work place - it shouldn't even be necessary at all, and should be naturally encompassed by the trade-union movement whatever, without women feeling it necessary to branch out into some kind of radical strand of socialism for women, which ironically from what I've seen whenever anyone mentions anything to do with this stuff, tends to lead to more friction and opposition. Organise for everyone, or not at all, and all of that.

Like everything, it has its extremes and which is often just little more than some women having a gripe about men without really having any real kind of aim of achieving anything constructive. Some would no doubt disagree with this. Just my take on it. It is what it is.
 
dangermows said:
Im too lazt to trail through the thread. Whats the crack with ASDA women? If its a debate about it always being women on the adverts slapping themselves on their beautiful derriers then im all for it.
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It was about checkout staff wanting the same pay as more skilled roles. Absolutely nothing to do with gender.
 
Her Ivory Tower said:
It was about checkout staff wanting the same pay as more skilled roles. Absolutely nothing to do with gender.
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I see, If youd said shelf stackers id have argued men should get more as they tend to be taller, so can reach the higher shelves without the need for steps/ladder (saving time, and time = money). As a work around the women could be made to wear stilettos? (God, I love women in stilettos).
 
LeicesterMackem said:
They wanted the same pay as roles of equal value to the company.
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The roles are not equal. It was unskilled checkout staff (there is no skill in sliding packets of fishcakes over a light) versus skilled distribution and warehouse staff who had HGV, Forklift, Manual Handing etc.

A brain surgeon cannot perform operations unless his instruments are clean. Equal value to the business. Should the man who slides trays in and out of an Autoclave be paid the same as the brain surgeon?
 
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Thurston said:
"Real" feminism isn't. It's just a continuation of the suffragette movement, and people wanting equality in all areas of life. Which is fine and something everyone should be behind. By rights - and certainly in the work place - it shouldn't even be necessary at all, and should be naturally encompassed by the trade-union movement whatever, without women feeling it necessary to branch out into some kind of radical strand of socialism for women, which ironically from what I've seen whenever anyone mentions anything to do with this stuff, tends to lead to more friction and opposition. Organise for everyone, or not at all, and all of that.

Like everything, it has its extremes and which is often just little more than some women having a gripe about men without really having any real kind of aim of achieving anything constructive. Some would no doubt disagree with this. Just my take on it. It is what it is.
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I think there have been some good posts in the thread, mainly from women it has to be said, and I can see the various points they make despite differing among themselves. I certainly wouldn't like to see women become blank, neutered versions of men or vice versa. The differences are what attract us in each other and when balanced are very complimentary. Wherever we head as a species we don't want to lose that. So we need equality and certainly in the external world where we both need to survive and where the issues should be addressed. Inside we are the same though. Take away the stereotype image of both and what you are left with is the same. Men are not as hard emotionally as they like to portray themselves and women are not as soft. Maybe we need to get to know ourselves before we can know each other and both become liberated from our own gender cage that we lock ourselves in.
 
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Her Ivory Tower said:
The roles are not equal. It was unskilled checkout staff (there is no skill in sliding packets of fishcakes over a light) versus skilled distribution and warehouse staff who had HGV, Forklift, Manual Handing etc.
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It's people that unpack products and stack shelves in store versus people that pack products in distribution centres. No qualifications involved. The claim is based around the assertion that the amount of manual handling in each job is the same.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29753702
 
Hammer said:
It's people that unpack products and stack shelves in store versus people that pack products in distribution centres. No qualifications involved. The claim is based around the assertion that the amount of manual handling in each job is the same.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29753702
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The article I read made it clear that it was skilled distribution workers not shelf stackers and it made clear that the skills required for the roles are different; warehouse workers were trained in how to use a forklift truck and health and safety regulations. It also said that the checkout female/male ratio was 60/40.
 
Her Ivory Tower said:
The article I read made it clear that it was skilled distribution workers not shelf stackers and it made clear that the skills required for the roles are different; warehouse workers were trained in how to use a forklift truck and health and safety regulations. It also said that the checkout female/male ratio was 60/40.
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Have you got a link?
 
Her Ivory Tower said:
The facts are different to those in your BBC link, my comments are based on the DM article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llenge-bosses-court-claims-men-paid-more.html

Specifically mentions distribution roles and distribution warehouse workers, not shelf stackers or people in store warehouses.
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The Mirror and Telegraph are much closer to the BBC version.

“Our investigations suggest that the jobs are pretty much the same, in that warehouse staff are responsible for taking items off shelves, putting them on pallets and loading them into lorries.
“In the supermarket, they do the reverse: taking the pallets off the lorries, unstacking them and putting the items on the shelves."

The Mail says that the warehouse jobs require forklift qualifications but the only actual quote from Asda is: "A firm of no-win, no-fee lawyers is hoping to challenge our award-winning reputation as an equal opportunities employer.
"We do not discriminate and are very proud of our record in this area which, if it comes to it, we will robustly defend."

The quote from the solicitor sounds quite reasonable if it is the case. The only source trying to suggest it's checkout workers wanting equal pay to HGV and forklift drivers is the Mail.
 
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