Is feminism sexist?

[Muppet]

You'd have to ask women that.

Maybe women want to? Maybe mothers value family over career?

And as for your last point, the instance of 'stay at home dads' has doubled since 2001. So yes, I'm sure we'll see a huge raft of blokes needing to find hours to fit around their children. Unless you were being sarcastic, and assuming that 'blokes' won't without any evidence to back up your assumption.

I wasn't being sarcastic. More of a watch this space. It'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference. But I'm sceptical that it will.

I wouldn't assume women get to make choices about what they value. Every mother I know, including me, was forced into their "choice" for economic reasons - can't afford not to work, or can't afford the childcare in order to work. A few of my friends earn more than their husbands but there's no-one talking about the men's "choice" to go back to work after the kids were born, seeing as they're the lesser earners.

 

[peachy]

Wrong question. Could the brain surgeon do the same job without him? One of the biggest failings of the capitalist system is the assigned subjective value on individual roles and functions often within allotted time-scales, rather than placing the value on the worker themself and the value they offer to what they do and the people around them. But hey.

Moved on from feminism a bit, but yes the brain surgeon needs his support staff and may not function as well without them. He could cope though, even if at a slower pace. The support staff would probably not have a job without the surgeon though.

 

[not spavin]

I wasn't being sarcastic. More of a watch this space. It'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference. But I'm sceptical that it will.

I wouldn't assume women get to make choices about what they value. Every mother I know, including me, was forced into their "choice" for economic reasons - can't afford not to work, or can't afford the childcare in order to work. A few of my friends earn more than their husbands but there's no-one talking about the men's "choice" to go back to work after the kids were born, seeing as they're the lesser earners.

It's all about compromise though, isn't it?

I work FT and my wife works PT because my earning potential is 3 times hers. If the opposite was true then I'd be delighted to work PT - I don't see as much of my son as I'd like because my job is demanding. I can't move to a less demanding job because now my salary is my main contribution to the household - as depressing as that is a thing to type.

My boss works FT, as does her husband. They both earn around the same, both high earners so can afford 5 days of a good creche per week. He takes more of the childcare burden than him, because her career matters more as she's has a greater future earnings potential. If it came to it, I think he'd pack it in to be a stay at home dad.

I'm sure that there are some blokes who wouldn't entertain the idea of staying at home, but I'm equally sure that there are some women are happy to choose family over career too. Some people are happy to comply to the stereotype - that's why they're stereotype.

It's certainly true that those with kids have to compromise in ways that those without kids don't, and that that burden is more on women than men. I just think the reasons for that are complex, and it's not as simple as men imposing a set of circumstances on women.

 

[Deleted member 14766]

32 pages - none of which I'm going to read because there is NO story here. It's a harmless t-shirt that is bland, slightly clever and harms or offends absolutely no-one whatsoever.

 

[Thurston]

Moved on from feminism a bit, but yes the brain surgeon needs his support staff and may not function as well without them. He could cope though, even if at a slower pace. The support staff would probably not have a job without the surgeon though.

By the same logic, neither would the surgeon because he's reliant on the people around him from the X Ray departments, nurses, physios, anathetists whatever. If they could do the entire job themselves it would be nigh on impossible and would probably be with little success as everyone would have died by then anyway. Same with any product or service. Try getting a product all the way through the stages of production/supply-chain on your own from idea, r&d, planning, entire production cycle, packaged, moved by forklift onto a van and transported out to market for you to then sell onto a customer on your own, and then see how 'unskilled' and unimportant these people are. Basically, the whole system of production is reliant on people believing what they do is less valuable than what other people do and that what they do takes less skill than someone higher paid, it's kind of an assumption, regardless of whether someone who got the qualifications to study medicine would have necessarily have the skillset of the person takes appointments and keeps records in a GP Surgery or at the very least the inclination. You know those places where one person goes off on Maternity, you can't get an appointment - so as a result it doesn't really make any difference how good the GP is at their job - and everyone's medical records end up getting lost or left in some Tesco Carpark. But without these 'low skilled' workers of "lesser value," we would be fucked.

 

[Harry Angstrom]

No, but its utter bullshit. Women harping on about six packs, ads and magazines all about buff blokes, pressures on men to fuck for 43 hours without a break etc.

I don't think those women will be feminists.

 

[dangermows]

I don't think those women will be feminists.

I reckon they will, they will just set fire to the bloke once the shagging has entered the 44th hour.

 

[Pants]

By the same logic, neither would the surgeon because he's reliant on the people around him from the X Ray departments, nurses, physios, anathetists whatever. If they could do the entire job themselves it would be nigh on impossible and would probably be with little success as everyone would have died by then anyway. Same with any product or service. Try getting a product all the way through the stages of production/supply-chain on your own from idea, r&d, planning, entire production cycle, packaged, moved by forklift onto a van and transported out to market for you to then sell onto a customer on your own, and then see how 'unskilled' and unimportant these people are. Basically, the whole system of production is reliant on people believing what they do is less valuable than what other people do and that what they do takes less skill than someone higher paid, it's kind of an assumption, regardless of whether someone who got the qualifications to study medicine would have necessarily have the skillset of the person takes appointments and keeps records in a GP Surgery or at the very least the inclination. You know those places where one person goes off on Maternity, you can't get an appointment - so as a result it doesn't really make any difference how good the GP is at their job - and everyone's medical records end up getting lost or left in some Tesco Carpark. But without these 'low skilled' workers of "lesser value," we would be fucked.

If I ever need brain surgey, I hope to fuck it's not in a hospital administered by you!

 

[Frijj]

What a loser. I get off with beggars 2 or 3 times a week.

Poor beggars!

I suppose they can't be choosers

 

[MonkeyLove]

Christ. 32 pages because some fucker couldn't go to his gym for a couple of hours

 

[Frijj]

Christ. 32 pages because some fucker couldn't go to his gym for a couple of hours

Women only gym hours are canny annoying like.

Not for me like, I don't go to the gym

 

[Thurston]

If I ever need brain surgey, I hope to fuck it's not in a hospital administered by you!

Haha. To be fair I worked for the Health Service for a few years so I've seen how important these lowly-paid workers are. A surgeon goes off on holiday for a week, there's a few people who may have to wait for treatment. A lowly paid worker in appointments goes off for a couple of days with a cold, everyone has to wait for treatment and the place is in turmoil.

 

[Apple Pie]

Not kept up with the thread, but for those of you who still need a bit of persuasion (last time I looked) (@lordy @dangermows @Her Ivory Tower etc)

 

[Pants]

Not kept up with the thread.

Tidied.

 

[HellsBells]

For that to happen, women would have to surrender their automatic right to maternity leave.

It's not a gender issue, it's a parental issue.


.

No, it requires equal access to maternity rights for men and women. Which we will have from April. And if the male takes the leave the woman will surrender her right to it.

.



Because being a secretary requires s specific skillset, just as working in a distribution centre requires a specific skillset.

Skill sets that only certain genders can do? Men can't type?

Why do they need to 'be changed' though? Shirley it's up to individual women to decide if they want to be homemakers or breadwinners and pursue that life. If a significant majority of women choose this stereotypical role, that's their choice which they're entitled to. It would be wrong to force people into a role they don't want, just to challenge a stereotype.

This is not about forcing people to do anything. It's about empowering people to break out of stereotypes if they want to.

 

[Harry Angstrom]

Not kept up with the thread, but for those of you who still need a bit of persuasion (last time I looked) (@lordy @dangermows @Her Ivory Tower etc)

I'm not being funny but most of them were harmless comments acknowledging the bird's beauty.

 

[soapster]

Feminism is a global issue that we here in the privileged UK can relax on relatively.

I like the Quaker view that until all of us are free we are all slaves. Until women have the same freedoms that men do feminism is a good thing. It is an issue for men also which is why it is good for men in the public eye to wear these t-shirts.

Men need to join this movement to ensure it is successful. It is a movement against domestic violence, rape etc crimes which typically find the victim is female.

I agree that men and women should be treated as equals. However it is bad jazz to offer him a t shirt to wear with your slogan on and when he chose not to wear it, to then harangue him.
You are then threatening a man to wear what you want him to wear otherwise you will try and publicly berate him. that is not treating everybody as equals.

would you wear what a man tells you to wear ( I will not go down the obvious route)

 

[Cain000]

Feminism is for fat hairy lesbians who hate men.

 

[not spavin]

Skill sets that only certain genders can do? Men can't type?

That's the exact opposite of the point I'm making.

No, it requires equal access to maternity rights for men and women. Which we will have from April. And if the male takes the leave the woman will surrender her right to it.

Be interesting to see if women are willing to.

 

[HellsBells]

That's the exact opposite of the point I'm making.



Be interesting to see if women are willing to.

What I don't understand is that you seem to view maternity leave as some sort of wonderful holiday. I'm sure some women do think of it as that but others could look at it as a year out that is likely to damage their career. Women who earn more or equal to their partners may be happy to split or give up the leave. My friend is a doctor and she has to pay for someone to cover her mat leave so it's costing both of them a fortune.

Also, some women might actually like to work.