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Happy St George's Day Guest
Israeli on Sky News
- Thread starter Caer_Urfa
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Hamas firing rockets at Israel compared with the genocide Israel is attempting in Gaza is the equivalent of teenage boys throwing rocks at tanks. The response is completely disproportionate and the truth is that Nethanyahu doesn't want Hamas to stop firing rockets because he wants an end to Palestine, starting with Gaza, and this justifies his actions in his eyes and the West is compliant. As to what I am going to do about it, your comment is flippant. If I had any idea what I could do about the situation I would do it but as I said, all I can do is despair and I despair of a people who have suffered so much that can wreak this suffering on others.
---Nemo---
Striker
TwasOnTheFifthOfMay
Striker
Most of his posts seem to be trying to identify a way of avoiding even more death and destruction - with the downside that Hamas would have to lose face and put on hold, for the moment, their fight to reclaim some land. While you on the other hand, amongst others, seem to see the fight for land and the continued assertion of their right to it as far more important than all the blood and guts that have been spilt, and will inevitably continue to be spilt in the future.
So again, who is the uncompassionate sociopath, putting land over innocent lives?
---Nemo---
Striker
D
Deleted member 25315
Guest
You see, who's twisting words now? What I'm against is the diproportinate attacks from Israel and the continuing slaughter. basically, the right for Palestinians to exist in peace. People like yourself, seem to just want to sweep this under the carpet -Israel could end this tomorrow, only a fool would believe the American-Israeli rhetoric about Hamas being the aggressor. "They are of no more threat to Israel than Luxembourg is to Russia."
Prominent, intellectual Jews such as Chomsky and Finkelstein, who are experts in this conflict, have been quoted on this thread and their opinions have been dismissed as either anti-Semitic or left wing bias, what chance has anyone else got?
K
Kauto Star
Guest
If I can just defend myself a little on this one
; fwiw I like Chomsky and as I have already posted, I was lucky enough to meet the fella. My 'left wing bias' point was more aimed at a University/educational viewpoint and I was simply highlighting the importance of understanding both points of view and then making an informed decision.
I certainly wasn't dismissing his work, but as someone who used Chomsky at under/post grad level, I do believe it's important to obtain some balance
sketchy
Winger
You only have to look at a map to see the answer. How many ceasefires have their been over the years and how much more land has Israel taken.
Chr15
Midfield
Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes
You've got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent's Patrick Cockburn revealed over the weekend, "the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe".
Let's be clear: I'm no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.
Having said that, however, in recent days I've been debating supporters of Israel's latest assault on Gaza on radio and on Twitter and I've been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.
This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."
Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html
You've got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent's Patrick Cockburn revealed over the weekend, "the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe".
Let's be clear: I'm no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.
Having said that, however, in recent days I've been debating supporters of Israel's latest assault on Gaza on radio and on Twitter and I've been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.
This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."
Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html
T
The Omega Man
Guest
Wow...PR being spun. There's a new one.
The problem with this thread is that there is no acceptance of the fact that Israel is not about to hand any land back and that the Palestinians have lost. They have lost for a couple of reasons:
1. They are incredibly weak in the face of overwhelming superior military might.
2. Credible international opinion is visibly absent and anyway the US etc. is too busy demonising Putin.
The Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas, place Fatah at its head and negotiate what it can from Israel. Fatah need to come out publically and say that Israel has a right to exist, renounce the violence and leave it at that.
There will be no Palestine, except the one that can be made in a peaceful Gaza, a one that does not threaten Israel. Until then I'm afraid that the genocide being committed in Gaza will continue, a one that will never be punished in international courts.
sketchy
Winger
If you can't fight to protect your self and your own property/land what can you fight for. The argument that Israel is too strong so therefore Palestine should just roll over is a pretty awful view to have.
Fatah is now involved with Hamas trying to broker somesort of peace for the people. They have been fairly open in their requests in order for a ceasefire to happen IDF have to leave Gaza yet Israel have said they won't pull out. Hamas has also said that pull back to 1967 borders and leave gaza ending the checkpoints and blockades and they will stop but Israel won't accept to this.
T
The Omega Man
Guest
What world do you live in? Israel will not hand any land back. What a crazy notion - "pull back to 1967 borders"...yeah right, that'll happen. Hamas are just as bad as Israel coming out with shit like this that they know wont happen so it gives them a pretext to continue shelling Israel.
As for Palestinians rolling over being a pretty awful view to have - its a realistic view and also its stops the killing. Your way has it continuing and thousands more being killed.
The Palestinians have lost. Accept it.
D
Deleted member 25315
Guest
Why are you still persisting with the Lie that Israel wants peace? After all the evidence that has been put forward, it's extraordinary that you still fail to see that Israel has no intention of peace or the two state solution.
sketchy
Winger
The point is it should happen. The only thing stopping it happen is Israel.
Try telling the families who have lost generation after generation of family member that they have lost and should just let Israel take the rest of the land. Then what? Where do they go?
T
The Omega Man
Guest
Israel did not start this war. Hamas did. The shelling of innocent civilians was unprovoked but is typical of Hamas war mongering. Of course Israel wants peace. No shelling no war and no killing of innocent civilians. As for a two state solution - the Palestinians have Gaza; a de facto Palestine recognised by the UN. They have what they want. They should let it be and move on.
In 2012, the UN General Assembly "accorded Palestine non-Member Observer State status in the United Nations". This can clearly be moved on to member status. The Palestinians can then move on to negotiating an end to the naval blockade, free movement of its people, in exchange for recognising Israel's right to exist in peace.
The reality of politics will pervade and the Palestinians need to renounce violence and start 50 years of peaceful co-existence and politicking rather than a continued cycle of violence in which they lose massively.
They have Gaza man. It has nearly 2m people in it. They have one of the highest birth rates in the world. No wonder its massively over crowded. Maybe some of the Palestinians can come over here - every fucker else does!
sketchy
Winger
Which has continued to shrink and if they don't defend themselves will still continue to shrink, then what?
T
The Omega Man
Guest
why will it continue to shrink? The Palestinians control Gaza on the ground and Israel are not trying to reclaim any part of Gaza as far as I am aware.
sonson
Striker
They "have" Gaza like Chickens "have" a battery farm. I daresay the majority of its occupants would have been quite happy to live there had Israel allowed it to grow autonomously but it's been denying it that opportunity and basically dictating it's capacity to progress and evolve in every way possible.
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T
The Omega Man
Guest
Even more reason for a stable, peaceful co-existence with Israel and to start a political solution free from the threat of violence. Clearly a protracted war has brought them nothing but death and misery.
Politics wins in the end and slowly but surely the Palestinians can start a process that over 50 years would/could result in a stable, peaceful and prosperous Gaza/Palestine. The political process has to start somewhere and now seems to be the right time to get real.
sonson
Striker
Only if Israel let it. They haven't.
I was basically of the view that both were at fault as late as yesterday, and obviously they are to some extent, but having read up on it the past few days it's pretty clear that Palestine can only progress as society in as much as Israel support that, and they manifestly don't.
This is very good http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/o...-and-israels-war-with-hamas-in-gaza.html?_r=0
"The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.
This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe."
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