Our turnover of playing staff since our last promotion must be the highest.

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You know what I'm talking about.£6m was pretty much standard fare at the time. McCartney looked a class above at Championship level and went onto play really well at West Ham. That justified a £6m fee at the time, even if his performances on coming back were garbage.




We needed a lot of players, in 06/07 and in 07/08. In 08/09 we needed to add to the ones in 07/08. There was a bit of a scattergun approach going on, but we were trying to build quickly as Keane basically started with nothing. You see I can understand some was wasted due to the nature of the approach, but with you not once does the importance of momentum or guaranteeing staying up, rather than taking chances even enter your head.



David Nugent was on promotion and a Championship player looking to step up. That shows the problems though, if we're competing for the best at that level and get out done on some of them like Nugent. Pompey had also been up three seasons at that point and like us also had money to spend. You're either very foolish or naive if you think that wouldn't be a factor.



We had cash to inject, but obviously we weren't paying massive wages in context to rest of the league. What you never seem to understand is that whilst you will get some good players, a club like us would have to offer a massive increase on what he was going to get elsewhere to get a player to take a chance on coming here, given the reputation we had and to an extent still do and the amount of times we got turned down on Baines, Forlan, Defoe and whoever else would suggest we weren't able to do so.

Oh and players do turn down higher offers, like Bent did at West Ham United, like Baines hinted at here. Like I've said countless times, long gone are the days Blackburn, Newcastle or Boro could offer 25k, 30k or 40k for a top player and they'd be getting 10 to 15k more than Man Utd would pay them. You're living in a bygone age, clubs like Citeh and Chelsea crazy investment and the CL has put an end to it.



I think he was competent, but limited. Limited also by what he had at his disposal. Great start here, Everton found out how to play our workman like high pressure counter attack game a couple of times and others followed and the arse dropped out of it, confidence dropped and he had no faith in the players, resulting in being very negative. When it came to signings he made a couple of big ones who were only a marginal success (debatable), made a few poor ones and relied too heavily on players from Bruce's last window. I liked the man very much, but I do think he's a bit of a dinosaur.



I could go through most and say many contributed well enough in areas, barring only a handful - your Halford's, Prica, McShane, Healy and a few more. You could certainly say not many gave a long term return, but many were dismissed quickly as we tried to push on. Most would regard Chopra as a failure, he was certainly overpriced, but the guy scored something like 7 or 8 key league goals in 38 games, mostly as a wideman which wasn't his position. He was then moved back to Cardiff for an apparent £4m. Even if that was just what we owed them, short term that's a good return. Andy Reid was another, a poor long term signing (though he was underused first season when in form under Bruce) but his signing was intergral at the point it came.




It was paper talk and talk among fans at time it happened. Think you should check your facts....Smith was sacked at the end of December. In January we won all three league games beating Millwall 6-2 in one and we were 11th in the table 6 points off the play offs. In February we won one, drew two and lost two as we progressed in the Cup. As our form began to tail off more, even in mid March we were in 14th place but only 8 points off a play off place, with two games in hand over a few clubs above us and due to the cup run it was certainly being talked about, but our form just got worse, especially running into April where we had a fixture pile up.

Despite our form totally dropping off and ending up in 18th, we were never in any danger. So no, that point wasn't anything close to being as bad as you're making out.



It was a sequence of event that made it so bad, plus it was a second lowest points total in two seasons, that led to just as much apathy and lost belief. There wasn't the squad left to use either, Reid arguably had a better squad when he arrived as mad as it sounds Alnwick, Ward, Wright, Caldwell, Elliott, Clarke, Cunningham, Collins, Murphy, Whitehead, Elliot, Arnau, Moquet, Nos, Brown, Lawrence ffs. We had managers and players turning us down and an horrendous start, with finished players coming in and Quinn in charge. For you to actually say you fancied to head in the opposite direction at the time, when no one else could see it, especially given games like the Southend one, you know one of the clubs you used in an example of how bad it was in the nineties and defeats to Plymouth and Brum at home, it could have been a very sorry state of affairs and needed something a little bit different to turn it around.




Nope, the boom was a combintation of factors, Premiership and new improved grounds, which attracted new customers. That period is your most disillusioned though, possibly because of age and shattered expectations. For me whose first game was Barnsley in 87 leading to the play offs it wasn't too far removed from what we were used to. The stadium was on the cards long before Reid was coming in though, Nissan and Gatehead council were the reasons we weren't already building one.,

I could just as easily say had we got the Keane appointment wrong at that time, we could have been going the opposite way and done what Sheff Wed, Leeds and countless others have too, despite spending money after relegation.



Bullshit :D

The last ten pages or so show otherwise, you can't fool people with feint praise then take it away and expect them to believe balance you know, some of us are too long in the tooth for it.



Depends on what grounds he 'walked' I suppose. Not always black and white is it.
I don't agree that McCartney was ever a 6m player regardless of the times. Just have to agree to differ in this one.
I understood his initial splurge and given how little time he had to put things in place he done well in assembling a side to go up. My issue with his business came once we went up and I don't think he needed to gamble as much given our resources. Bringing in players like Healy who cost 2 million and then basically just cost us a wage was typical of his devil may care approach to the market.
The only factor that matters to a player is a wage when it comes to the players we were competing for. Neither Nugent,baines or forlan will have signed for their respective clubs on less than what we were offering. Perhaps if Keane had adopted a quality over quantity approach our wage budget would have been greater.
I'm not aware of Bent turning down a better offer from West Ham but I am aware of Bent accepting a sideways career move in order to boost his purse stings as I'm aware of Gyan doing the same and ashley cole and I could go on. I have never once claimed we had the clout to compete with the big big clubs but as far as newly promoted sides go Keanes budget was massive.
Andy Reid integral? He played one lovely ball to murphy when just on as sub on debut and that's about it. Way to slow and immobile to be an effective top flight player. Nice left peg mind. Chopra wasn't a good signing however you dress it up.
I thought the millwall game was December so I was a month out which given it's over twenty year ago isn't bad. I'm not using google for my research perry ;). My points still stand in regards to a play off push though. It really was never on.
We finished 18th which was still a million mile away from the promised land which was my point..
Reid had a better squad? A side that had been at the bottom end of 2nd tier for 4 seasons and you say that was better than a squad which consisted of players like whitehead,Lawrence,Collins,Elliott and brown who'd all been good enough to win that league 15 month before Keane walked through the door? Come on man!
We'd lost at home to the southends, brentfords and teams of that nature over a period of time. There's an argument to suggest that what went on before Keane arrived was the exception rather than the rule.
That period is probably the one I'm most informed on. As ive said I'm not using any references other than memory for this whilst you are coming across as a bit revisionist. My first game was actually before yours. Brighton home beginning of that season. I was also at your first game too. Roger Wylde returning to haunt us and a young Steve Agnew I believe in their midfield. As you'll now be aware I was used to nothing but struggle too. It shows just how we were drifting into obscurity before reids intervention and for you to pass off a period in which we nearly dropped into third tier again as 'not as bad as I'm making out' I find absurd. We were obviously looking to move but the Nissan move had fallen through and if we had dropped at that time it's highly doubtful we'd have the wonderful stadium we have now. It may have resulted into a sprucing up of Roker Park into some sort of all seater which was an option after the Nissan debacle.
I have praised Keane throughout and criticised where I believe necessary. If you look through older threads on here discussing Keane as a pundit you will see I've spoken of how I like him. I genuinely have nothing against him. I don't make things personal when I'm having a debate on something which is how I can remain as objective as possible.
 


When he left it was constant. When he'd been paid off and was looking for another job it was constant and shameful. Since then he's mentioned us and it on occasions without being pressed on it.



I know you have, but you keep posting the song comment as if I've said it in a different context, when I haven't. It's baffling you keep mentioning it when it was clearly only used to show how he'd been building things up and then back tracked, I wasn't actually bothered about it, just made him look a bit petty.



Stokoe was a success, there you have it.



For being a Geordie he hasn't had much until he got linked with the move. He'd had plenty of stick on here over the years when people disagree with what he offers, but plenty of praise too.
Im unaware of the facts regarding Keanes decision to walk but as I've said I'm certain if Brucey had done the same a little thing like being unaware of facts wouldn't get in the way of a good slagging session.
It really wasn't as constant or as shameful as you or others have made out. When he first appeared in the media after his sacking the topic of sunderland was always going to crop up and he answered the Questions put to him. When he went to Hull in the league below there was no need to discuss us and he didn't. Naturally when he came up and we faced them it was only natural the discussion would rear it's head again.
Yes it's ok to be Geordie associated with Sunderland providing you do well. Be on your guard if you fall short though!
Colback had spent his whole career here from being a bairn so he was an honorary Mackem if you like. Now he's signed for them he is of course a shithouse,scumbag blah blah blah and some of the things said on here have been way out of order
 
The more the results went against us the more his early footballing allegiances came to the forefront I'm afraid.

And the more his fatness did too....and his total lack of tactical awareness..

He was sacked on entirely justifiable grounds then whined and whined and whined it was because of his Geordie roots. You and his media cronies seem to have fallen for this line. I didn't.

He wasn't forced out early. He hung on for far too long.

And he got us to 10th ya knaw....
 
The more the results went against us the more his early footballing allegiances came to the forefront I'm afraid.

And the more his fatness did too....and his total lack of tactical awareness..

He was sacked on entirely justifiable grounds then whined and whined and whined it was because of his Geordie roots. You and his media cronies seem to have fallen for this line. I didn't.

He wasn't forced out early. He hung on for far too long.

And he got us to 10th ya knaw....
I have never claimed he was forced out early. Check my posts and you will see this. He was justifiably sacked but like all managers they never believe it to be the case and feel hard done by. This isn't exclusive to Bruce. He has also never once claimed to have been sacked for his Geordie Roots all he said was that when it went pear shaped it was flung in his face which it clearly was.
And yes he did finish tenth which is a decent achievement for a club like us given our respective positions over the last 50 year.
 
I understood his initial splurge and given how little time he had to put things in place he done well in assembling a side to go up. My issue with his business came once we went up and I don't think he needed to gamble as much given our resources. Bringing in players like Healy who cost 2 million and then basically just cost us a wage was typical of his devil may care approach to the market.

But again, if you go for good players and they wont sign, do you just suffer and go down? We've had this already, we couldn't attract the quality we wanted, call it wages, good players not taking it seriously or whatever you like - they wouldn't come.

Healy was second season up and a wasteful signing. However if you look at the timing and the fact we more or less swapped him for Etuhu, whilst considering there was no time scale on Jones at the time because he had what turned out to be a weird double ligament injury, which basically healed itself. Chopra went into rehab that week, Cisse hadn't signed at that point then looking at what we had left it wasn't such a weird aquisition as a cheap gap filler for £1.5m, though he did turn out to be an absolute waste. I think we panicked a bit there.

The only factor that matters to a player is a wage when it comes to the players we were competing for.

Utter nonsense I'm afraid. Are you really naive or stupid enough to think that every player thinks so short term and not that they might benefit more both career wise financially if they make a career decision? Even if said player will consider us, you might have to pay twice as much to get him here. He's not going to uproot and take a chance for a couple of grand more.
Neither Nugent,baines or forlan will have signed for their respective clubs on less than what we were offering. Perhaps if Keane had adopted a quality over quantity approach our wage budget would have been greater.

So you're now saying he never originally set out to buy just quality, he just wanted to fill the squad?

You're also suggesting that Keane had the say on what he wanted in terms of transfer fees, but not wages, which is bizaree. Even if his spending on transfer fees meant wages were less, that wasn't the case at the start as he went for the better players and it wasn't the case at the end as he was signing more high profile players. Your argument here doesn't make sense on any level really.

And from what Baines was saying he said he could have basically named his price.

I'm not aware of Bent turning down a better offer from West Ham

Curbishley at West Ham time, turned down something ridiculous as he wanted (and waited) for the move to Spurs. Football is riddled with players doing similar too. Like I keep saying the difference in the nineties was massive, now it's not. Players aren't stupid enough to take a massive career gamble unless it's the kind of money you just can't turn down like Gyan moved for, but few players and clubs can offer that.

I have never once claimed we had the clout to compete with the big big clubs but as far as newly promoted sides go Keanes budget was massive.

We weren't just trying for top players though, we got outdone by Everton, by Pompey, by Boro ffs with Mido and countless others. If you cannot see that we were effectively a joke and seen as too big a risk, then there's no hope for you. A few ex pro's even said it at the time and once we had a season or two up people might come. I'm loathe to use some of the comments from them as most are gobshites, but if you can use a quote from a cricketer then I'm not sure why you would ignore them.

Andy Reid integral? He played one lovely ball to murphy when just on as sub on debut and that's about it. Way to slow and immobile to be an effective top flight player. Nice left peg mind. Chopra wasn't a good signing however you dress it up.

Yes integral to our play after signing.

I wouldn't say Chopra was a good signing, but he paid for himself with those goals and we got good money back. Job done.

I thought the millwall game was December so I was a month out which given it's over twenty year ago isn't bad. I'm not using google for my research perry ;). My points still stand in regards to a play off push though. It really was never on.

I merely used facts to back up my original point, I remember it well, seemingly more so than you. It was talked about and why wouldn't it be? You're almost suggesting it's a ludicrous idea because of where we finished, but add the facts up A) newly relegated b) progressing well in the cup c) 11th with games in hand and good form at the end of January.

Reid had a better squad? A side that had been at the bottom end of 2nd tier for 4 seasons and you say that was better than a squad which consisted of players like whitehead,Lawrence,Collins,Elliott and brown who'd all been good enough to win that league 15 month before Keane walked through the door? Come on man!
We'd lost at home to the southends, brentfords and teams of that nature over a period of time. There's an argument to suggest that what went on before Keane arrived was the exception rather than the rule.

Absolutely. In 1995 Norman and Chamberlain were getting on, but had played almost all their careers at the top two levels, as opposed to Alnwick who has done nowt and Ward who mostly played at lower levels. In 1995 we had a right back with 40 or so caps for Poland opposed to a right back who cost a wedge, but filtered down the leagues, we had a left back in Scott who had just signed for approx 650k in 1995! as opposed to Danny Collins who at the time was utterly useless. Centre backs in 95 were Ball, Ord, Melville (Ball also filling in midfield roles prior to Reid's arrival) and at the start of that season we only had Caldwell who compared favourably to any of those. In midfield in 95 we had Ball, Agnew, Smith, Gray (Mickey) and back up like Ferguson and Cunnington that cost more than and central midfelder at the club when Keane arrived. In wide areas we were strong in 95 with Mickey Gray and Smith, in 2006 we'd just signed Hysen for the WBA game and had Lawrence. Upfront in 95 we had Gray, Russell, Angell, Howey and in 2006 it was Elliott and Brown. Yes in 95 many had underperformed, but they were individually better in most cases.


That period is probably the one I'm most informed on. As ive said I'm not using any references other than memory for this whilst you are coming across as a bit revisionist. My first game was actually before yours. Brighton home beginning of that season. I was also at your first game too. Roger Wylde returning to haunt us and a young Steve Agnew I believe in their midfield. As you'll now be aware I was used to nothing but struggle too. It shows just how we were drifting into obscurity before reids intervention and for you to pass off a period in which we nearly dropped into third tier again as 'not as bad as I'm making out' I find absurd. We were obviously looking to move but the Nissan move had fallen through and if we had dropped at that time it's highly doubtful we'd have the wonderful stadium we have now. It may have resulted into a sprucing up of Roker Park into some sort of all seater which was an option after the Nissan debacle.
I have praised Keane throughout and criticised where I believe necessary. If you look through older threads on here discussing Keane as a pundit you will see I've spoken of how I like him. I genuinely have nothing against him. I don't make things personal when I'm having a debate on something which is how I can remain as objective as possible.

I'm coming accross as revisionist? Fuck off! I remember most of it clear as day and just as you have your version of events borne out by your feelings, I have mine. You're clearly coming accross as bitter, you were seemingly at the stage many of us hit where the inital support wears off and you think everything concerned with the club is shit.
 
I don't make things personal when I'm having a debate on something which is how I can remain as objective as possible.

You actually do believe that to be true as well don't you? Astonishingly.

When he went to Hull in the league below there was no need to discuss us and he didn't. Naturally when he came up and we faced them it was only natural the discussion would rear it's head again.

Ermm he often did hence the threads on here at times before they got in the top flight....

Yes it's ok to be Geordie associated with Sunderland providing you do well. Be on your guard if you fall short though!
Colback had spent his whole career here from being a bairn so he was an honorary Mackem if you like. Now he's signed for them he is of course a shithouse,scumbag blah blah blah and some of the things said on here have been way out of order

But it's like being fat, ginger or anything else that's obvious. It's just the first thing that comes into somes head. Doesn't mean they had it in for him from the start.
 
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But again, if you go for good players and they wont sign, do you just suffer and go down? We've had this already, we couldn't attract the quality we wanted, call it wages, good players not taking it seriously or whatever you like - they wouldn't come.

Healy was second season up and a wasteful signing. However if you look at the timing and the fact we more or less swapped him for Etuhu, whilst considering there was no time scale on Jones at the time because he had what turned out to be a weird double ligament injury, which basically healed itself. Chopra went into rehab that week, Cisse hadn't signed at that point then looking at what we had left it wasn't such a weird aquisition as a cheap gap filler for £1.5m, though he did turn out to be an absolute waste. I think we panicked a bit there.



Utter nonsense I'm afraid. Are you really naive or stupid enough to think that every player thinks so short term and not that they might benefit more both career wise financially if they make a career decision? Even if said player will consider us, you might have to pay twice as much to get him here. He's not going to uproot and take a chance for a couple of grand more.


So you're now saying he never originally set out to buy just quality, he just wanted to fill the squad?

You're also suggesting that Keane had the say on what he wanted in terms of transfer fees, but not wages, which is bizaree. Even if his spending on transfer fees meant wages were less, that wasn't the case at the start as he went for the better players and it wasn't the case at the end as he was signing more high profile players. Your argument here doesn't make sense on any level really.

And from what Baines was saying he said he could have basically named his price.



Curbishley at West Ham time, turned down something ridiculous as he wanted (and waited) for the move to Spurs. Football is riddled with players doing similar too. Like I keep saying the difference in the nineties was massive, now it's not. Players aren't stupid enough to take a massive career gamble unless it's the kind of money you just can't turn down like Gyan moved for, but few players and clubs can offer that.



We weren't just trying for top players though, we got outdone by Everton, by Pompey, by Boro ffs with Mido and countless others. If you cannot see that we were effectively a joke and seen as too big a risk, then there's no hope for you. A few ex pro's even said it at the time and once we had a season or two up people might come. I'm loathe to use some of the comments from them as most are gobshites, but if you can use a quote from a cricketer then I'm not sure why you would ignore them.



Yes integral to our play after signing.

I wouldn't say Chopra was a good signing, but he paid for himself with those goals and we got good money back. Job done.



I merely used facts to back up my original point, I remember it well, seemingly more so than you. It was talked about and why wouldn't it be? You're almost suggesting it's a ludicrous idea because of where we finished, but add the facts up A) newly relegated b) progressing well in the cup c) 11th with games in hand and good form at the end of January.



Absolutely. In 1995 Norman and Chamberlain were getting on, but had played almost all their careers at the top two levels, as opposed to Alnwick who has done nowt and Ward who mostly played at lower levels. In 1995 we had a right back with 40 or so caps for Poland opposed to a right back who cost a wedge, but filtered down the leagues, we had a left back in Scott who had just signed for approx 650k in 1995! as opposed to Danny Collins who at the time was utterly useless. Centre backs in 95 were Ball, Ord, Melville (Ball also filling in midfield roles prior to Reid's arrival) and at the start of that season we only had Caldwell who compared favourably to any of those. In midfield in 95 we had Ball, Agnew, Smith, Gray (Mickey) and back up like Ferguson and Cunnington that cost more than and central midfelder at the club when Keane arrived. In wide areas we were strong in 95 with Mickey Gray and Smith, in 2006 we'd just signed Hysen for the WBA game and had Lawrence. Upfront in 95 we had Gray, Russell, Angell, Howey and in 2006 it was Elliott and Brown. Yes in 95 many had underperformed, but they were individually better in most cases.




I'm coming accross as revisionist? Fuck off! I remember most of it clear as day and just as you have your version of events borne out by your feelings, I have mine. You're clearly coming accross as bitter, you were seemingly at the stage many of us hit where the inital support wears off and you think everything concerned with the club is shit.
Christ man Reading this on a phone its like scrolling down a super size bog roll..
 
Turner was f***ing horrendous. Awful. We paid less than £4m for him BTW

Thought Turner was alright as long as he had somebody alongside him who could carry him through a game but when the onus was on him to be the leader in the backline he was a shambles.
 
But again, if you go for good players and they wont sign, do you just suffer and go down? We've had this already, we couldn't attract the quality we wanted, call it wages, good players not taking it seriously or whatever you like - they wouldn't come.

Healy was second season up and a wasteful signing. However if you look at the timing and the fact we more or less swapped him for Etuhu, whilst considering there was no time scale on Jones at the time because he had what turned out to be a weird double ligament injury, which basically healed itself. Chopra went into rehab that week, Cisse hadn't signed at that point then looking at what we had left it wasn't such a weird aquisition as a cheap gap filler for £1.5m, though he did turn out to be an absolute waste. I think we panicked a bit there.



Utter nonsense I'm afraid. Are you really naive or stupid enough to think that every player thinks so short term and not that they might benefit more both career wise financially if they make a career decision? Even if said player will consider us, you might have to pay twice as much to get him here. He's not going to uproot and take a chance for a couple of grand more.


So you're now saying he never originally set out to buy just quality, he just wanted to fill the squad?

You're also suggesting that Keane had the say on what he wanted in terms of transfer fees, but not wages, which is bizaree. Even if his spending on transfer fees meant wages were less, that wasn't the case at the start as he went for the better players and it wasn't the case at the end as he was signing more high profile players. Your argument here doesn't make sense on any level really.

And from what Baines was saying he said he could have basically named his price.



Curbishley at West Ham time, turned down something ridiculous as he wanted (and waited) for the move to Spurs. Football is riddled with players doing similar too. Like I keep saying the difference in the nineties was massive, now it's not. Players aren't stupid enough to take a massive career gamble unless it's the kind of money you just can't turn down like Gyan moved for, but few players and clubs can offer that.



We weren't just trying for top players though, we got outdone by Everton, by Pompey, by Boro ffs with Mido and countless others. If you cannot see that we were effectively a joke and seen as too big a risk, then there's no hope for you. A few ex pro's even said it at the time and once we had a season or two up people might come. I'm loathe to use some of the comments from them as most are gobshites, but if you can use a quote from a cricketer then I'm not sure why you would ignore them.



Yes integral to our play after signing.

I wouldn't say Chopra was a good signing, but he paid for himself with those goals and we got good money back. Job done.



I merely used facts to back up my original point, I remember it well, seemingly more so than you. It was talked about and why wouldn't it be? You're almost suggesting it's a ludicrous idea because of where we finished, but add the facts up A) newly relegated b) progressing well in the cup c) 11th with games in hand and good form at the end of January.



Absolutely. In 1995 Norman and Chamberlain were getting on, but had played almost all their careers at the top two levels, as opposed to Alnwick who has done nowt and Ward who mostly played at lower levels. In 1995 we had a right back with 40 or so caps for Poland opposed to a right back who cost a wedge, but filtered down the leagues, we had a left back in Scott who had just signed for approx 650k in 1995! as opposed to Danny Collins who at the time was utterly useless. Centre backs in 95 were Ball, Ord, Melville (Ball also filling in midfield roles prior to Reid's arrival) and at the start of that season we only had Caldwell who compared favourably to any of those. In midfield in 95 we had Ball, Agnew, Smith, Gray (Mickey) and back up like Ferguson and Cunnington that cost more than and central midfelder at the club when Keane arrived. In wide areas we were strong in 95 with Mickey Gray and Smith, in 2006 we'd just signed Hysen for the WBA game and had Lawrence. Upfront in 95 we had Gray, Russell, Angell, Howey and in 2006 it was Elliott and Brown. Yes in 95 many had underperformed, but they were individually better in most cases.




I'm coming accross as revisionist? Fuck off! I remember most of it clear as day and just as you have your version of events borne out by your feelings, I have mine. You're clearly coming accross as bitter, you were seemingly at the stage many of us hit where the inital support wears off and you think everything concerned with the club is shit.
No. Either you or a member of the scouting staff do some further research and look for adequate replacements for players you were unable to sign. In the case of Nugent and mido it shouldn't have been too hard.
So after trying to justify the Healy signing you then accept it was a panic buy. You on the sherry last night perry? :lol:
We are going around in circles in regards to players aspirations. You have given one example (bent to west ham) of a player not chasing money. I have given you Bent (again), Gyan and Ashley Cole just off top of head regarding players making either sideways or backward moves for the money. Best off putting this part of discussion to be do think.
How on earth was Andy Reid ever integral? What are you talking about man?
We somehow managed to get 4m for Chopra which was a good effort actually but it was 5m out of our coffers for a period of time that should have been better spent.
It may have been whispered by a few optimists but the reality was that it wasn't going to happen. 11th place was our peak that season so to suggest that a play off charge was on, on the back of a handful of good results was again extremely fanciful and not a thought that I quite correctly ever entertained.
Darren Ward was a welsh international with as many caps as Tony Norman (who was finished when Reid came anyway) and had been a regular at Nottingham Forest for 3 or 4 seasons before arriving here.Chamberlain was poor regardless of his top flight spell at Luton.
Kubicki was past his best when Reid took over and those caps were a distant memory although given you like bringing caps up Keane had a 50+ cap Kenny Cunningham to choose from,Nyron Nosworthy,as well as Steven Caldwell who'd already been a winner of the championship. Ord was a joke figure among fans prior to Reid taking over and was even being played at left back by Buxton. Melville was poor and Ball had pretty much already been moved to midfield by our previous gaffer. Martin Scott was decent enough but you seem to be stating how good he was by a price tag. To put it into perspective we payed pretty much the same for Brett Angell!
Now onto midfield. Reid had a young kid In Mickey Gray who was progressing but by means the finished article. Martin Smith who is one of biggest myths in history of sunderland ( drifted down leagues much as you liked to point out about wright) Ball who was ok. To then bring up Derek Ferguson and Shaun cunnington is laughable to the point of risible. Keane had Lawrence and whitehead (championship winners) Delap who was once deemed a 5m+ player before he came here and went on to play over 100 top flight games for Stoke after he left. Tobias Hysen who was a Swedish international and a young Grant leadbitter who has shown to be a decent championship player ( lot better than ferguson cunnington anyway).
Now upfront. Reid inherited a Craig Russell who had been playing on the wing prior to his arrival and a decent performer in Phil Gray along with two cardboard cutouts in Howey and Angell.Keane had 3 forwards who had already scored goals and won the championship in Stephen Elliott, Kevin Kyle and Chris Brown. None superstars but all with experience of getting out of the second tier which is more than can be said of the forwards Reid Inherited.
That discussion is just going by what they found as well. Reid had to pretty much make do with what he had and galvanise them. Keane had a big championship budget to do what he needed to do and as I have shown he also started from a healthier position squad wise as well.
That particular era was the period I never missed a game so like I said I have a good grasp of the feelings around the place. Absolutely nothing on the horizon when Reid walked through door and I mean nothing. It wasn't just a feeling that everything around the club was poor it clearly was! A tired old ground, the little money we had squandered on the likes of Cunnington and Angell, flirting with the drop to third tier, constant crowd protests again the board. It was a bleak bleak time and you trying to paint what Keane walked into as some sort of footballing Armageddon then trying to say the years prior to Reid taking over weren't as bad as I'm making out is ridiculous.
 
You actually do believe that to be true as well don't you? Astonishingly.



Ermm he often did hence the threads on here at times before they got in the top flight....



But it's like being fat, ginger or anything else that's obvious. It's just the first thing that comes into somes head. Doesn't mean they had it in for him from the start.
I do believe it because it's true. My professional opinion of somebody doesn't affect my personal and vice versa. I detest floyd mayweather but I acknowledge he is the greatest boxer I've seen in my lifetime and will argue all day long about it. I don't like Pardew but again I can see that he's done a good job under the circumstances. Can't stomach Rio Ferdinand but in his pomp he was up there with any central defender in Europe. As I've said Keane was one of my favourite players and is now one of my favourite pundits.
This is something I can tell you find difficult to separate and why you can't relate to somebody like me who can.
If he did it was only when asked and let's be honest the blokes only got to look into the camera lens the wrong way some days and somebody will start a thread about him on here!
I have never said our fans had it in for Colback or Bruce from the start. What happens is they get a chance but as soon as it starts unravelling the whole Geordie thing rears it's head. Happened to Bruce, Chopra, Clark and now it's Colback. Evidence slightly overwhelming really.
 
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I do believe it because it's true. My professional opinion of somebody doesn't affect my personal and vice versa. I detest floyd mayweather but I acknowledge he is the greatest boxer I've seen in my lifetime and will argue all day long about it. I don't like Pardew but again I can see that he's done a good job under the circumstances. Can't stomach Rio Ferdinand but in his pomp he was up there with any central defender in Europe. As I've said Keane was one of my favourite players and is now one of my favourite pundits.
This is something I can tell you find difficult to separate and why you can't relate to somebody like me who can.
If he did it was only when asked and let's be honest the blokes only got to look into the camera lens the wrong way some days and somebody will start a thread about him on here!
I have never said our fans had it in for Colback or Bruce from the start. What happens is they get a chance but as soon as it starts unravelling the whole Geordie thing rears it's head. Happened to Bruce, Chopra, Clark and now it's Colback. Evidence slightly overwhelming really.

Oh give over you pompous twat. You might be able to seperate Roy Keane as a player, you might even be able to see he done a good job first season (though you have to grudgingly add he had more money than McCarthy or Reid), but your view of him is clouded so much because he wasted a lot of funds that you can't seperate each event or circumstance after that and judge it as a job lot failure. That's not balance, that's being blinded by your own opinion.

Whereas even I can see that losing Bent wasn't all Bruce's fault, that Gyan shafted him for more money too - if that were Keane, you would simply say they were his picks. Trouble is Bruce is contradicting and condescending and I didn't particularly like him in the first place because of the drab football his sides tended to play and his whining in the press, so I genuninely don't like him before, during and certainly not after and many are like me. He could come from Mars or next door, it doesn't matter. And Colback and Clark had virtually nothing in the way of Geordie abuse before they left, certainly not in anyway 'overwhelming' evidence, Chopra himself left the day after the miss, we didn't even have time to get on his case for it.
 
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No. Either you or a member of the scouting staff do some further research and look for adequate replacements for players you were unable to sign. In the case of Nugent and mido it shouldn't have been too hard.

:D :D

So after trying to justify the Healy signing you then accept it was a panic buy. You on the sherry last night perry? :lol:

No, I done what you can't seem to do and don't seem to understand - I took myself back to the situation at the time and I never ever justified the Healy signing, you are lying suggesting I did, I simply gave the circumstances around it.

We are going around in circles in regards to players aspirations. You have given one example (bent to west ham) of a player not chasing money. I have given you Bent (again), Gyan and Ashley Cole just off top of head regarding players making either sideways or backward moves for the money. Best off putting this part of discussion to be do think.

No no no. You have continually said players move for money and nothing else. We know they're mostly going to move for more, what you also completely ignore though is that the financial package is always going to be there and some clubs will have to pay more to attract a player than others, because of location, because of the competitions they may or may not be in etc, because that player might not particularly fancy the move, you then have to make it more attractive. You are ignoring all that for the sake of your own argument.
How on earth was Andy Reid ever integral? What are you talking about man?

To the form in the second half of the season, as Evans was.

We somehow managed to get 4m for Chopra which was a good effort actually but it was 5m out of our coffers for a period of time that should have been better spent.

But it was at a time when our first and second and probably third and four choices wouldn't come. We weren't lacking in funds, obviously as it didn't curtail our spending afterwards. Therefore on the basis he scored about 8 valuable goals, grafted his bollocks off for a season or so out of position and then we almost got our money back, how can you knock it? No one is saying he was quality, no one denies he's an absolute shitbox of an individual, but needs must at the time, he contributed and we moved him on.

It may have been whispered by a few optimists but the reality was that it wasn't going to happen. 11th place was our peak that season so to suggest that a play off charge was on, on the back of a handful of good results was again extremely fanciful and not a thought that I quite correctly ever entertained.

It was allover the press man and we were saying it, regardless of whether it was close or likely to happen.
Darren Ward was a welsh international with as many caps as Tony Norman (who was finished when Reid came anyway) and had been a regular at Nottingham Forest for 3 or 4 seasons before arriving here.Chamberlain was poor regardless of his top flight spell at Luton.Kubicki was past his best when Reid took over and those caps were a distant memory although given you like bringing caps up Keane had a 50+ cap Kenny Cunningham to choose from,Nyron Nosworthy,as well as Steven Caldwell who'd already been a winner of the championship. Ord was a joke figure among fans prior to Reid taking over and was even being played at left back by Buxton. Melville was poor and Ball had pretty much already been moved to midfield by our previous gaffer. Martin Scott was decent enough but you seem to be stating how good he was by a price tag. To put it into perspective we payed pretty much the same for Brett Angell!

Darren Ward only got caps as there was no one else decent, wheras Norman had Nevill Southall and others to contend with. Ward was almost finished himself when he arrived here anyway, just as Norman was. Chamberlain was average, but it's more than Alnwick ever amounted to. And for man who keeps claiming you don't google things, what you've said about Ward exactly mirrors his wiki page....

Kubicki had a spell out at Villa as he hadn't done well, but was excellent prior to and after Reid took over. His form dropped when he was in the top flight (God knows why) and then later in the season was played left back where he was poor. Cunningham was absolutely finshed here on arrival and played about six games for Keane before he had to retire.

Your memory fails you again, Ord had been in the side earlier in the season under Buxton and had done well, but wasn't a regular. It was Butcher who had regularly played Ord at left back, when Ord recieved a lot of criticism. Crosby even played him central midfield and compared him to Glenn Hoddle, but that's another story....

And no I'm not stating how good Scott was by the price tag, as he was better than it. I was pointing out that in some areas the players Reid had on arrival had more spent on them than many of Keane's, 12 years or so previous. Melville wasn't poor at all, that just shows how you're building up Caldwell and Nos into "had won the Championship before" players as good and knocking players like Melville who were clearly better.

Now onto midfield. Reid had a young kid In Mickey Gray who was progressing but by means the finished article. Martin Smith who is one of biggest myths in history of sunderland ( drifted down leagues much as you liked to point out about wright) Ball who was ok. To then bring up Derek Ferguson and Shaun cunnington is laughable to the point of risible. Keane had Lawrence and whitehead (championship winners) Delap who was once deemed a 5m+ player before he came here and went on to play over 100 top flight games for Stoke after he left. Tobias Hysen who was a Swedish international and a young Grant leadbitter who has shown to be a decent championship player ( lot better than ferguson cunnington anyway).

Smith had been excellent that season prior to Reid coming in, statistically as a winger he'd been scoring 1 goal in every 3 starts in his Sunderland career which is superb. There's no myth in that. As with most wingers of his type, he was inconsistent, but he was a class act at that time at that level, probably why Bruce was desperate to get him to Huddersfield, but initially lost out. I find it laughable you can build up players like Caldwell, Nos, Lawrence, Delap and at the same time knock players like Ferguson, Melville and Cunnington and say Ball was 'ok'. In the grand scheme of things they were all shite, we know that. The point is we had spent good money on buying them and they had been useful players at that level for us and others.

Now upfront. Reid inherited a Craig Russell who had been playing on the wing prior to his arrival and a decent performer in Phil Gray along with two cardboard cutouts in Howey and Angell.Keane had 3 forwards who had already scored goals and won the championship in Stephen Elliott, Kevin Kyle and Chris Brown. None superstars but all with experience of getting out of the second tier which is more than can be said of the forwards Reid Inherited.

So Kyle and Brown at that time were better than Russell and Gray? Kyle had gone by the time Keane arrived btw, we did have Jon Stead, somewhere, but he was bombed out quickly and was absolutely dreadful by that point. We also had Murphy, who had actually started ok. I'd say there's not a lot of difference between the set of strikers each had given to them, the 2006/07 ones should have shaded it, but due to Elliott's injuries and the relegation hang over they weren't as good and were being outscored by Reid's strikers both prior to and post Reid coming in, even when Russ was on the wing.
 
Oh give over you pompous twat. You might be able to seperate Roy Keane as a player, you might even be able to see he done a good job first season (though you have to grudgingly add he had more money than McCarthy or Reid), but your view of him is clouded so much because he wasted a lot of funds that you can't seperate each event or circumstance after that and judge it as a job lot failure. That's not balance, that's being blinded by your own opinion.

Whereas even I can see that losing Bent wasn't all Bruce's fault, that Gyan shafted him for more money too - if that were Keane, you would simply say they were his picks. Trouble is Bruce is contradicting and condescending and I didn't particularly like him in the first place because of the drab football his sides tended to play and his whining in the press, so I genuninely don't like him before, during and certainly not after and many are like me. He could come from Mars or next door, it doesn't matter. And Colback and Clark had virtually nothing in the way of Geordie abuse before they left, certainly not in anyway 'overwhelming' evidence, Chopra himself left the day after the miss, we didn't even have time to get on his case for it.
There is nothing grudging about any credit I give Keane. I'm merely pointing out he started with a better chance than either McCarty or Reid wether you like it or not. That doesn't mean to say I have a personal agenda it's purely my point of view.
Why would I blame Keane if the situations that arose with Bent or Gyan had occurred under his charge? The fact of the matter is that nobody Keane signed was ever really courted by anybody for that situation to arise so you are basically just making things up to suit yet again.
As for dreadful football we played some really good stuff under Bruce for periods and at one point he'd assembled a decent squad only for hi last window to undo a lot of good work.
Chopra left just as Clark did before the proverbial could hit the fan and you know it. The minute colback was rumoured to be heading to Newcastle it became open season on here. To try and say we have no real prejudiced against the mags is utter nonsense.
 
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