religion. what is the point?

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AlpineExile said:
Cos I'm trying to understand whether your beliefs are coherent and logical or whether they are incoherent, contradictory and illogical.
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They're coherent and logical ;)

Mercia Blackcat said:
If the timeless was not affected by time then why would it act and if it did act it could not be timeless.

People may not believe truth but truth should be reasonable.
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It's isn't affected by time, we are. There's no complication.
 
The Bing Bang Theory starts with the preexistence of dense of matter. It doesn't start to deal with creation of the universe because when it begins, matter already exists. It would have to start with the point prior to the existence of matter to begin to refute the proposition of a Creator.
 
Kubicki's right boot said:
If there was a since when, it wouldn't by definition be always
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That's no explanation Kubi.

Try again please, maybe using different words or something.

Lewberry pie said:
They're coherent and logical ;)
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I doubt it, somehow.

Kubicki's right boot said:
The Bing Bang Theory starts with the preexistence of dense of matter. It doesn't start to deal with creation of the universe because when it begins, matter already exists. It would have to start with the point prior to the existence of matter to begin to refute the proposition of a Creator.
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Add all the matter and energy up in the universe and it looks like the sum total is zero, so you're wrong there.
 
AlpineExile said:
That's no explanation Kubi.

Try again please, maybe using different words or something.

I doubt it, somehow.


Add all the matter and energy up in the universe and it looks like the sum total is zero, so you're wrong there.
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You wouldn't be suggesting that cause and effect dictates we can't exist?
 
Kent_Mackem said:
Hahah. Brilliant.

Why not just say we were always there? Then you wouldn't even need a creator.
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Am I still on ignore after you had a tizzy a few months back

AlpineExile said:
I'm just hanging around waiting for you to explain your beliefs.
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Okay then, let's go round in.circles, you explain yours.

You won't cause you don't have any.

I'm don't accept that because it's just a cop out

Repeat for 500 pages.
There you go, now answer the question or don't
 
Lewberry pie said:
Am I still on ignore after you had a tizzy a few months back


Okay then, let's go round in.circles, you explain yours.

You won't cause you don't have any.

I'm don't accept that because it's just a cop out

Repeat for 500 pages.
There you go, now answer the question or don't
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Well done, you've got it in one.

Now you, however, claim to have beliefs, so that is why I'm asking you to explain them.

I admit that I am partially asking you that to try and see if you understand your own beliefs or not.
 
dangermows said:
Back to my original point. You arent a scientist. And you arent carrying out the experiments. You arent testing the findings of those experiments either. So you are putting faith in what you are being told.
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Scientific experiments can be re-tested and redone by anyone with the right experience/kit.
They usually are peer reviewed, and then tested and often improved on further.
Religious views cannot be tested, they cannot be re-created.
Anyone with the experience can discredit a scientific experiment and pronounce it fake, if after publication it cannot be replicated again.
No one can denounce religion as fake, as it cannot be proven in the first place.

dangermows said:
Looks after its own interests, like everyone else, so will tell you what it wants to. And you will be none the wiser.
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The system covers things up, but plenty people knew the truth.
It came out eventually, as most things will when cover ups happen.

Ilios said:
There's no 'faith' involved in science, it is a methodology, and one that works over and over again. I take it you're happy to have 'faith' in the computer you're typing on, or the car you drive, or every time you switch on a light. It is an argument from ignorance that I stated earlier - 'I don't know something, therefore everything is equal in validity'. It is a fallacy.
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The hardware yes, the software no, as not much science in modern software these days.

Kubicki's right boot said:
Morality is both personal and public. If morality was purely personal we'd teach in schools, "make your own mind up about whether to steal that persons property" but of course, we don't.
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Unless your talking about islamic teaching, which seems to teach that you should follow the law of the land you are in - as LONG AS IT DOES NOT CONFLICT WITH ISLAMIC LAW.

Problem with that (apart from the obvious, its teaching people to ignore the law of the land when a fairy tale book disagree's) is that peoples interpretations of the teachings in the books varies.
So basically muslims are free in their religion to disregard any law that disagree's with their very own personal interpretation of the books they read.

AlpineExile said:
So do you think it's OK to steal?

and - if not - why not?
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Stealing can be acceptable under some exceptional circumstances.

Lewberry pie said:
Again pinz you're taking scripture out of context to fit am argument, for example the rape and his victim isn't right, just off the top of my head, they were forced to marry cause they'd been bucking, not cause he'd raped her. Try not to be so willing to accept everything you hear from evil bible. Com ;)
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Flicked a bible open to a random verse today, cant remember which one it was, but it basically said that slaves should fear their masters, as if they were fearing christ or god.
Slavery is not only acceptable, its taught that slaves should fear their masters?
You dont need evil bible.com you can flick it open and hit random verses like I did today to find stuff that might have made sense thousands of years ago, but was morally wrong even then (just back then moral standards were different) but you would think god would have had a bit more common sense than to condone slavery.
 
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Lewberry pie said:
It's not beyond our comprehension, it just isn't bound by the rules we are. I think I've just explained what God is anyway, or have I not? Can you explain why the last 2 questions are relevant to my definition of God?


Because that was the culture of the time, perhaps God just created a guide for people with slaves rather than destroying the culture of the time.

And as I've said, the Hebrew probably means lay down rather than rape but even in that case it's not condoning the action, simply recording what happened.
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Why would a spiritual being that precedes time, that has always been, and always will be, that is all knowing, all powerful, write a book that is targetted to a particular point in history, knowing it will be flippin useless for the rest of eternity?
Knowing he/she/it is condoning all that is wrong, knowing its teaching immorality and will become a laughing stock?

Ilios said:
Creation requires the paradigm of 'time', therefore a timeless creator is a logical fallacy. It is also special pleading to assert that your specific god is exempt from rules that govern everything else. To state that God is beyond rational capability, is to completely denounce Christianity in its entirety. It would be like accepting we live in a 2D world, and yet claim some people in a backwater of Judaea managed to walk off the page in a 3rd dimension, 2000 years ago, and somehow know the chartacteristics, name and personality of something that would be absolutely impossible for anybody to ever perceive. Also, if he precedes time, then he has no perception of it, and couldn't be interventionist.
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Time is just a man made concept imo.
Its just a measurement we invented.
I dont see how or why time would need to be something a creator would need to care about, although it was pretty specific that he took 1 day for each task and rested on 7th day in creation of world.
Although, people say how long is a day to god, I say if he cannot translate and explain to us mere humans what a day means then the rest of the bible must be not worth reading.
 
Lewberry pie said:
That doesn't mean God won't change his mind, anyway your point is a bit useless because God using the tools available is not him changing his mind.

Why do you keep asking me to define my terms, what are you actually getting at? I dont believe in interventionist God as such BTW.


Says who
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God has any tool he wants to have availble to him.
He can magic up commandments on stone tablets, part seas, inflict plagues, flood the earth, yet we are expected to believe he cannot give someone simple instructions on what to write? Or write it himself?
 
People can beleive what they want as long as they don't start trying to shove those beliefs down other peoples' throat..which often seems to happen at the barrel of a gun
 
jcrossan said:
People can beleive what they want as long as they don't start trying to shove those beliefs down other peoples' throat..which often seems to happen at the barrel of a gun
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Or at school, or sunday school, or at home.
Non violent indoctrination can be as harmful as being converted at gun point, if not more so.
 
kensplace said:
God has any tool he wants to have availble to him.
He can magic up commandments on stone tablets, part seas, inflict plagues, flood the earth, yet we are expected to believe he cannot give someone simple instructions on what to write? Or write it himself?
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god does something you approve of , like helping you find your car keys = god is an all loving god.

god does something appalling like killing every first born child in Egypt = god moves in mysterious ways.
 
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