Sky News and Hillsborough memorial...

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Is justice an apology and absolving the Liverpool supporters of any blame then? That's happened.

Or do they want somebody to take the blame, and if so who? And what then? Heads to roll? If so, whose? Who can possibly be accountable?

I'm not trying to be funny or owt. I'm just asking. It's not clear to me what justice will or ever can be? It's not clear to a lot of people, which I'm sure breeds cynicism, and hence some animosity, which is s shame. But then I'm sure there'll be some who'll back the campaign, calling for justice, though without themselves truly understanding the goal. It wouldn't surprise me if that included some of the people of Liverpool. It's this word justice. What is it?

They want the world to know what they have known for 25 years for heavens sake.

If you cannot grasp why someone would want to know how their kin died, and that that the authorities blocked and covered up what they knew, then, well, you are back in school in a week.
 


They were.

All they did is enter the ground and follow the police's directions. It's all in the report.

Its only the more recent reports which don't lay some of the blame at Liverpool fans door though?

Is it a case of you (or anyone else) being picky about which report is or isn't to be sniffed at to suit the appropriate agenda?
 
Any police officer who has been part in any kind of cover up, should serve jail time.
So the police should take the wrap?
They want the world to know what they have known for 25 years for heavens sake.

If you cannot grasp why someone would want to know how their kin died, and that that the authorities blocked and covered up what they knew, then, well, you are back in school in a week.

Not much of a campaigner are you? :neutral:
 
Its only the more recent reports which don't lay some of the blame at Liverpool fans door though?

Is it a case of you (or anyone else) being picky about which report is or isn't to be sniffed at to suit the appropriate agenda?

So,

People turn up to a football match, 24,000 are sent to the same end to enter. Now let's say for argument sake 1,000 don't have tickets. So that's now 25,000 sent to the same end to enter, despite plenty of turnstiles on the other side of the ground.

Hardly any police outside said end, so you've no organisation at all. People everywhere, all wanting to get in and see their team, it's getting close to kick off and it's f***ing bedlam. And still no real police presence.

The police open a gate and allow 2,000 fans through (25% of the 96 are from these 2,000)

No one stops the 2,000 heading to the middle pen and then we all know what happens.

So even with my mythical 1,000 ticketless fans involved, it really wouldn't have made all that much difference to the outcome.

So the police should take the wrap?


Not much of a campaigner are you? :neutral:

The police fucked up from start to finish. They attempted to cover it all up, they tried to deflect the blame.

So, I'm saying yes. They are there to ensure the safety and failed completely.
 
Its only the more recent reports which don't lay some of the blame at Liverpool fans door though?

Is it a case of you (or anyone else) being picky about which report is or isn't to be sniffed at to suit the appropriate agenda?
I shifted through some of the disclosed documents when they came out and there was testimony in there from a turnstile operator that ticketless fans were vaulting turnstiles to get into the ground.

Now, anyone who has looked at the causes of the disaster far closer than me has not apportioned blame to the fans (at least not to any material extent). However, it seems that there were some ticketless fans in the Leppings Lane end (if that testimony is true).
 
Why did the police do that? It proved to be the wrong action to take but can you explain why they did it?

Yes, mate.

What had happened is that the previous year when Liverpool fans were in the same end in the same competition they'd had ticket searches farther and crowd funnelling down the road preventing a build up of fans. The Chief Inspector who was in charge at that match was experienced but a couple of weeks/months before the '89 semi final they replaced him with Duckinfield who had no experience of FA Cup semi finals and crowd control. This time there were no cordons farther down the road and fans were held up on the way to Sheffield in road works.

So, large numbers did turn up at about 2:20 (which incidentally isn't the 5 to 3 time I left the pub in '80s for all aways). And all Liverpool fans had to go through Leppings Lane, even those down the side in the seats and it was a big pen not like say Roker Park with loads of turn stiles on a street. You had to go through gates and to get to the turn stiles and there were far too many trying to get in at that time. Those down the seats and in the stand, including those held up in road works. Once you got through that entry and into the pen there was no way back out as you couldn't step away. So, there was a build up outside with no way to alleviate the pressure, and the police opened the gate into the ground and failed to direct people down the sides or close off the middle pens.

I shifted through some of the disclosed documents when they came out and there was testimony in there from a turnstile operator that ticketless fans were vaulting turnstiles to get into the ground.

Now, anyone who has looked at the causes of the disaster far closer than me has not apportioned blame to the fans (at least not to any material extent). However, it seems that there were some ticketless fans in the Leppings Lane end (if that testimony is true).

Of course there will have been fans looking for a blag. It happened all the time at Sunderland. But, evidence tells us that the Leppings Lane end was 50 over capacity. Certainly not enough to be a factor in such a tragedy.
 
Nope, the disaster had to do with letting too many people into a certain area. It could still potentially happen today in a concourse somewhere if the same mistakes were made. It wouldn't have happened if the end wasn't divided into pens or there were no fences. They're weren't too many fans for the whole of the end. Safe standing is perfectly possible.

When I went to Hillsborough last time we were there I was shocked how tight it was under the stand for such a big away end.
 
Yes, mate.

What had happened is that the previous year when Liverpool fans were in the same end in the same competition they'd had ticket searches farther and crowd funnelling down the road preventing a build up of fans. The Chief Inspector who was in charge at that match was experienced but a couple of weeks/months before the '89 semi final they replaced him with Duckinfield who had no experience of FA Cup semi finals and crowd control. This time there were no cordons farther down the road and fans were held up on the way to Sheffield in road works.

So, large numbers did turn up at about 2:20 (which incidentally isn't the 5 to 3 time I left the pub in '80s for all aways). And all Liverpool fans had to go through Leppings Lane, even those down the side in the seats and it was a big pen not like say Roker Park with loads of turn stiles on a street. You had to go through gates and to get to the turn stiles and there were far too many trying to get in at that time. Those down the seats and in the stand, including those held up in road works. Once you got through that entry and into the pen there was no way back out as you couldn't step away. So, there was a build up outside with no way to alleviate the pressure, and the police opened the gate into the ground and failed to direct people down the sides or close off the middle pens.
so they were acting like animals outside crushing each other in an effort to expedite entry into the ground? Yes?
 
Why did the police do that? It proved to be the wrong action to take but can you explain why they did it?
Because it was bedlam outside with barely no police to control the crowd at all. They had lost complete control by this point and rather than send police outside the ground to sort it, they opened a gate and then Informed anyone who would listen that it had been broken down.

so they were acting like animals outside crushing each other in an effort to expedite entry into the ground? Yes?

f***ing hell have you watched or read anything about it?

I was at Roker park trying to get semi final tickets once. It was chaos, no one was acting like animals, they were acting like people who were desperate not to miss out on getting tickets.

I would have thought it was people trying to make their way Into a football ground and not miss the kick off.
 
By the grace of god and all that.

I tell you what, if my child had died in that way, I wouldn't stop until answers were forthcoming etc, I would do everything in my power to keep it in the public eye until some bastard was held accountable.

Spot fukkin on that. Nowt to do with footie.
 
so they were acting like animals outside crushing each other in an effort to expedite entry into the ground? Yes?

Look, I have some reservations about absolving all fans of any blame whatsoever, but you seem to be just making things up. I don't think you've done much research on the topic.
 
Is justice an apology and absolving the Liverpool supporters of any blame then? That's happened.

Or do they want somebody to take the blame, and if so who? And what then? Heads to roll? If so, whose? Who can possibly be accountable?

I'm not trying to be funny or owt. I'm just asking. It's not clear to me what justice will or ever can be? It's not clear to a lot of people, which I'm sure breeds cynicism, and hence some animosity, which is s shame. But then I'm sure there'll be some who'll back the campaign, calling for justice, though without themselves truly understanding the goal. It wouldn't surprise me if that included some of the people of Liverpool. It's this word justice. What is it?

what about the negligence of the Police at the time to ensure the safety of the fans? the FA who knew about previous issues of over crowding and the lack of safety certificate? the lack of treatment made available at the time. What about the 'cover up' and doctoring of 238 Police statements, some to remove criticisms of their own bosses? There's probably more but that's what I've seen just with a quick search so I guess that's why you've just said what you said here and in another thread

there's also more info here, have a read of it

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/12/hillsborough-manslaughter-police-fa-council-club

imagine if it was your loved one who'd died and then you later found out all the shit that went on yet could have been stopped then initially trying to blame the drunken ticketless fans, other countless lies and then trying to cover it up

is an apology enough or would you want justice of some kind?
 
It's quite simple. 96 people died when they attended a football match. Someone must be held accountable for that. We have the FA promoting the game, the police who are the supposed custodians of law and order, Sheffield Wednesday Football club who wanted the prestige of holding the FA Cup semi final.

It's very f***ing simple unless you are monumentally f***ing stupid: if 96 people die at a football match and no one is held accountable, then fuck the f***ing safety standards and the rest of it, no one cares so if you die at a match tough shite.

In the Western world, mate, we tend to think that justice is a principle worth fighting for and that means when people have failed to undertake their duty, people who are in a position of authority, i.e. gross negligence; then authority must accept the consequences.

If you don't hold authority accountable then what's to stop them doing anything they want - this is a principle that even a burrow owl would understand.

Now, now.:lol: :lol:

I'll glance over those remarks, as you have actually gone some way to answering my question, and made some compelling arguments against the police.

imagine if it was your loved one who'd died and then you later found out all the shit that went on yet could have been stopped then initially trying to blame the drunken ticketless fans, other countless lies and then trying to cover it up

is an apology enough or would you want justice of some kind?

Just to be clear, as it's come up a few times, and directed at me more than once, I'm not saying they should just let it lie.
 
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It only emerged last year that Hillsborough had no safety certificate when the match was played. The FA, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield Council and South Yorkshire police managed to cover that up for 24 fuckin years!.
Each and everyone of the fuckers who knew should be chucked on a bonfire and burnt in public. FA Blazers, Police, Councillors, Civil Servants, Sheff Wed board members every last man and woman jack or jill of em. Those in the jobs at the time and those who came after and helped cover it all up, hang em fuckin high.



Jesus kerist man/woman. It was on cctv and it wasnt standing that killed people it was the fences ffs.
Standing at the SOL nowadays would result in people just spilling onto the pitch to avoid problems (In fact its part of the stadiums emergency evacuation plan).



Unfortunately weve got our share of hard of thinking types on here marra.

The CCtv just shows entry through the gates not down the tunnel to the pitch that's where the police say the charging occurred.

Anyways far more concerned about those murdered at the Heysel - not seen anywhere near the same publicity for a wanton act of violence versus an accident
Bindippers just fukin love been the victims - they are so more often the perpetrators - I recall their charge at the gates for the European Cup Final - fortunately no-one was killed on that occasion - our bus windows were smashed for 10 years running coming away from Dippers FC

Scousers are low level ***** who love the moral high ground
 
what about the negligence of the Police at the time to ensure the safety of the fans? the FA who knew about previous issues of over crowding and the lack of safety certificate? the lack of treatment made available at the time. What about the 'cover up' and doctoring of 238 Police statements, some to remove criticisms of their own bosses? There's probably more but that's what I've seen just with a quick search so I guess that's why you've just said what you said here and in another thread

Eh? And what other thread?
 
There is some right embarrassing attention seeking ***** raising their ugly heads in this thread like. I'm ashamed that so-called football supporters (especially who claim to follow the club I love) hold these views. Thick headed and shameful cretins.
 
Eh? And what other thread?

soz, it should have been post as you'd said this earlier in this thread

http://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/sky-news-and-hillsborough-memorial.905792/page-4#post-17486228

just to be clear, as it's come up a few times, and directed at me more than once, I'm not saying they should just let it lie.

you're not saying they should let it lie but then you're asking what justice do they want and what is this word justice? for starters Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield should be at least up for charges of negligence (some may want manslaughter). What about all those involved in trying to cover it up with lies and altering statements?

what about prosecutions for whoever regarding the invalid safety certificate?

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/prose...sborough-stadium-safety-certificate-1-4927865

The Taylor report revealed Hillsborough’s safety certificate had been unchanged since 1979 despite several changes to the layout of the stadium in the following decade - rendering the certificate invalid.

To remain valid, Hillsborough’s safety certificate should have been changed to specify the maximum number of people allowed into different parts of the ground after layouts were altered.

In his summary, Lord Taylor said: “The performance of the city council of its duties in regard to the safety certificate was inefficient and dilatory.

“The failure to revise or amend the certificate over the period of three years preceding this disaster despite important changes in the layout of the ground, was a serious breach of duty.”

no doubt there's more as I vaguely recall 1988 but even now I'm amazed at some of the stuff I wasn't aware of! You need to do some Googling mate rather than making comments that you're making ;)

I'd start here because would you be satisfied with what it says seeing as Duckenfield who was in charge that day made the monumental fuck up and then lied about it hasn't been prosecuted

that alone is still a valid reason for justice but as mentioned, it's not just that as there's more too it if you read more into it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#Prosecution

or do you really want to still play dumb and ask what is the word 'justice' is about?
 
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