Tour de France thread 2014**

[frot]

Today was the first day when I thought that it looked a bit suspicious. It's one thing to be easily the most talented climber in the race (and he can't do anything about that) but Nibali still looks fresh. That's after a difficult tour in which he's attacked on just about every stage he could. It's hardly like he's been riding defensively.

He's 7 minutes up against pretty poor opposition. Wiggins won it with about 6 minutes against much better, why did that not set alarm bells ringing? Chris Froome was winning stages by a minute plus last year anarl.

Not at the end of the race. Froome faded in the last week. I remember him panicking on Alpe D'Huez and being dropped by Quintana and Rodriguez on the last mountain finish. It's not like Froome wasn't questioned either. He came under a lot more scrutiny than Nibali has

 

[Cee Jay]

[Q="Walter Ego, post: 18248150, member: 27633"]

He's 7 minutes up against pretty poor opposition. Wiggins won it with about 6 minutes against much better, why did that not set alarm bells ringing? Chris Froome was winning stages by a minute plus last year anarl.[/QUOTE]



You might say however that his improvement from early season is dramatic.
Having said that hope he's clean and apart from association with others not heard any chatter or suspicions about him.
And agree about how easier task is since froome and contain withdrew..

 

[Rottie]

He's 7 minutes up against pretty poor opposition. Wiggins won it with about 6 minutes against much better, why did that not set alarm bells ringing? Chris Froome was winning stages by a minute plus last year anarl.

Maybe but they both looked vulnerable at certain points.
Nibali is winning this in a stroll whilst everybody else is blowing out of their arse.

 

[Washy]

How would wiggins gave done if he had been in team and they threw team behind him instead of Richie porte, thats been a disaster...

I nar btw fuck all but brailsford seemed to have a real arrogance about it all.

 

[Cee Jay]

How would wiggins gave done if he had been in team and they threw team behind him instead of Richie porte, thats been a disaster...

I nar btw fuck all but brailsford seemed to have a real arrogance about it all.

Think Brailsford taking the hit for the team....almost certain froome has veto in latest contract.

 

[yorkyexile]

He's 7 minutes up against pretty poor opposition. Wiggins won it with about 6 minutes against much better, why did that not set alarm bells ringing? Chris Froome was winning stages by a minute plus last year anarl.

fair point.Mind Brailsford was cagey about releasing data last year......

 

[Cee Jay]

Reckon a fit and dully motivated wiggins would have podiumed. ...54 k tt would see him putting minutes and minutes into the likes of pinot.

But we will never know

 

[Washy]

Think Brailsford taking the hit for the team....almost certain froome has veto in latest contract.

Fucks that about then?

Well i am going to enjoy wiggins in the track.

 

[yorkyexile]

Reckon a fit and dully motivated wiggins would have podiumed. ...54 k tt would see him putting minutes and minutes into the likes of pinot.

But we will never know

Duly

 

[Cee Jay]

When froomes contract re negotiated and sky were desperate to keep him it's widely thought he insisted on veto .
And wiggins was far from blameless in their relationship breaking down ..

Hence no wiggins despite him looking in superb form in tour of California

 

[Hitchin Exile]

The more it's gone on, the more confident I am that Nibs is clean. I'm highly confident that Pinot, and the AGR2 boys are clean - French teams have done just as much over the past couple of years as Sky & Garmin to create a clean culture and they ride just like you would expect clean riders to do.

Nibs has been dominant over them, but not massively so on any one stage and, when you're winning, the confidence to keep attacking and know that you can do it, just grows and grows. We would of all expected him to be dominating against these riders at the start (before Froome & Bertie departed).

Perhaps most importantly, if he wasn't clean but wanted to appear as if he was, he wouldn't keep attacking and winning stages. He could have ridden defensively after the first week and won comfortably but not in the dominating way that he has. In other words, he's behaved like an innocent, clean rider by the very fact that he keeps winning.

As I've said before, I can't possibly know that he is clean and I wish he didn't have the team associations with the people he has. However, to say that, as he keeps winning he looks more suspicious, is misunderstanding what's been going on in the battle for the podium places, imho. Th

Reckon a fit and dully motivated wiggins would have podiumed. ...54 k tt would see him putting minutes and minutes into the likes of pinot.

But we will never know

I really don't think he would. There's no evidence that he's been climbing well this year. In the Tour of California he didn't totally dominate the climbs when they were perfect for him (i.e. relatively gentle long slopes) and with second rate opposition (Rohan Dennis was runner-up!!). The climbs this year in stage after stage have been difficult and punchy. The TT isn't that long. And finally, the Sky train that he relied on so heavily in 2012 was non-existent here (or indeed for the last couple of years).

We'll never know but I would have serious doubts that he would have finished let alone got on the podium.

When froomes contract re negotiated and sky were desperate to keep him it's widely thought he insisted on veto .
And wiggins was far from blameless in their relationship breaking down ..

Hence no wiggins despite him looking in superb form in tour of California

 

[Walter Ego]

The more it's gone on, the more confident I am that Nibs is clean. I'm highly confident that Pinot, and the AGR2 boys are clean - French teams have done just as much over the past couple of years as Sky & Garmin to create a clean culture and they ride just like you would expect clean riders to do.

Nibs has been dominant over them, but not massively so on any one stage and, when you're winning, the confidence to keep attacking and know that you can do it, just grows and grows. We would of all expected him to be dominating against these riders at the start (before Froome & Bertie departed).

Perhaps most importantly, if he wasn't clean but wanted to appear as if he was, he wouldn't keep attacking and winning stages. He could have ridden defensively after the first week and won comfortably but not in the dominating way that he has. In other words, he's behaved like an innocent, clean rider by the very fact that he keeps winning.

As I've said before, I can't possibly know that he is clean and I wish he didn't have the team associations with the people he has. However, to say that, as he keeps winning he looks more suspicious, is misunderstanding what's been going on in the battle for the podium places, imho. Th

I'm going to agree with you. Even though I was convinced 12/13 that he was off his lips.

The 'team associations' thing is my current bugbear. It's rolled out a lot by Team Sky fanboys who seem to forget names like Yates, De Jongh, Knaven, Leinders, Julich, Cioni.

 

[frot]

The more it's gone on, the more confident I am that Nibs is clean. I'm highly confident that Pinot, and the AGR2 boys are clean - French teams have done just as much over the past couple of years as Sky & Garmin to create a clean culture and they ride just like you would expect clean riders to do.

Nibs has been dominant over them, but not massively so on any one stage and, when you're winning, the confidence to keep attacking and know that you can do it, just grows and grows. We would of all expected him to be dominating against these riders at the start (before Froome & Bertie departed).

Perhaps most importantly, if he wasn't clean but wanted to appear as if he was, he wouldn't keep attacking and winning stages. He could have ridden defensively after the first week and won comfortably but not in the dominating way that he has. In other words, he's behaved like an innocent, clean rider by the very fact that he keeps winning.

As I've said before, I can't possibly know that he is clean and I wish he didn't have the team associations with the people he has. However, to say that, as he keeps winning he looks more suspicious, is misunderstanding what's been going on in the battle for the podium places, imho. Th



I really don't think he would. There's no evidence that he's been climbing well this year. In the Tour of California he didn't totally dominate the climbs when they were perfect for him (i.e. relatively gentle long slopes) and with second rate opposition (Rohan Dennis was runner-up!!). The climbs this year in stage after stage have been difficult and punchy. The TT isn't that long. And finally, the Sky train that he relied on so heavily in 2012 was non-existent here (or indeed for the last couple of years).

We'll never know but I would have serious doubts that he would have finished let alone got on the podium.

I don't think he is doping in all honesty, but the performance today was suspicious. You could argue that the reason he's been attacking so much is to prove that he could have won even with Froome and Contador in it.

Agree about Wiggins. He's never shown his 2012 form since he won the Tour. I think he could have maybe made it into the top-10. Don't think he'd have been dropped on a lot of climbs with some of the accelerations and Sky not bring able to control things. The person who should really feel aggrieved about not being selected is Kennaugh. He's been showing some great form of late.

 

[Hitchin Exile]

I don't think he is doping in all honesty, but the performance today was suspicious. You could argue that the reason he's been attacking so much is to prove that he could have won even with Froome and Contador in it.

Agree about Wiggins. He's never shown his 2012 form since he won the Tour. I think he could have maybe made it into the top-10. Don't think he'd have been dropped on a lot of climbs with some of the accelerations and Sky not bring able to control things. The person who should really feel aggrieved about not being selected is Kennaugh. He's been showing some great form of late.

Totally agree with that. L'il Pete should have been there and certainly would have made a stronger contribution than many of the team (Pate!!??). Once Froome and Porte had dropped out of contention I reckon Kennaugh would have had a real chance of a stage win. Far stronger case for being there than Wiggins imho and far more baffling as to why he isn't.

Be interesting to see how it affects his contract negotiations - I do think Sky are in danger of f***ing things up badly in being seen as the 'British Team' that promotes British talent. The decision of the two best British prospects in going to OGE instead of (one of them) going to Sky was cause for concern. PK possibly going elsewhere would be a massive blow. G also making noises about looking around for a new contract. Difficult days for Brailsford but nothing to do with Wiggo.

 

[Cee Jay]

I'm going to agree with you. Even though I was convinced 12/13 that he was off his lips.

The 'team associations' thing is my current bugbear. It's rolled out a lot by Team Sky fanboys who seem to forget names like Yates, De Jongh, Knaven, Leinders, Julich, Cioni.

I'm far from a sky fanboi. ..but to compare sky and what they're aiming to do even though they've shot themselves in the foot from time to time...to the likes of a stand is ridiculous.

fair enough yates and de jong. ...but in cycle villainy just don't compare to the vinos and bruyneel ..and there are plenty of others.

The more it's gone on, the more confident I am that Nibs is clean. I'm highly confident that Pinot, and the AGR2 boys are clean - French teams have done just as much over the past couple of years as Sky & Garmin to create a clean culture and they ride just like you would expect clean riders to do.

Nibs has been dominant over them, but not massively so on any one stage and, when you're winning, the confidence to keep attacking and know that you can do it, just grows and grows. We would of all expected him to be dominating against these riders at the start (before Froome & Bertie departed).

Perhaps most importantly, if he wasn't clean but wanted to appear as if he was, he wouldn't keep attacking and winning stages. He could have ridden defensively after the first week and won comfortably but not in the dominating way that he has. In other words, he's behaved like an innocent, clean rider by the very fact that he keeps winning.

As I've said before, I can't possibly know that he is clean and I wish he didn't have the team associations with the people he has. However, to say that, as he keeps winning he looks more suspicious, is misunderstanding what's been going on in the battle for the podium places, imho. Th



I really don't think he would. There's no evidence that he's been climbing well this year. In the Tour of California he didn't totally dominate the climbs when they were perfect for him (i.e. relatively gentle long slopes) and with second rate opposition (Rohan Dennis was runner-up!!). The climbs this year in stage after stage have been difficult and punchy. The TT isn't that long. And finally, the Sky train that he relied on so heavily in 2012 was non-existent here (or indeed for the last couple of years).

We'll never know but I would have serious doubts that he would have finished let alone got on the podium.

I reckon he would have been about where van garden is...

And 54 k is a very long tt..
Not quite as long as the one indurain did (and what this year's tt was meant to be a tribute to ) but still very long

 

[Hitchin Exile]

I'm far from a sky fanboi. ..but to compare sky and what they're aiming to do even though they've shot themselves in the foot from time to time...to the likes of Astana is ridiculous.

fair enough yates and de jong. ...but in cycle villainy just don't compare to the vinos and bruyneel ..and there are plenty of others.

I reckon he would have been about where van garden is...

And 54 k is a very long tt..
Not quite as long as the one indurain did (and what this year's tt was meant to be a tribute to ) but still very long

Fair enough, and you're right about the TT being fairly long (I was exaggerating for effect!! ). But I don't think he would have been near the podium.

And I agree about Astana; there is something deeply unpleasant about the ethos of the organisation but, I guess if they're offering Nibs high wages and a strong team in support then he's going to be their like a shot. As Walter says, it's impossible to go to a team that genuinely has no dark historical connections (Garmin lead by Vaughters & Miller is a case in point).

 

[Cee Jay]

Fair enough, and you're right about the TT being fairly long (I was exaggerating for effect!! ). But I don't think he would have been near the podium.

And I agree about Astana; there is something deeply unpleasant about the ethos of the organisation but, I guess if they're offering Nibs high wages and a strong team in support then he's going to be their like a shot. As Walter says, it's impossible to go to a team that genuinely has no dark historical connections (Garmin lead by Vaughters & Miller is a case in point).

I agree that anyone but a fully fit froome wouldn't manage with the weakened sky effort..
But the course isn't a vuelta/Giro in terms of summit/steep climbs.
I reckon a fit,fully focused( and granted Wiggins can't always guarantee that) Wiggins could be 3 to 4 minutes from podium..and 54TT he'd take that back easily....

than again could be talking out of my arse

 

[Hitchin Exile]

The

I agree that anyone but a fully fit froome wouldn't manage with the weakened sky effort..
But the course isn't a vuelta/Giro in terms of summit/steep climbs.
I reckon a fit,fully focused( and granted Wiggins can't always guarantee that) Wiggins could be 3 to 4 minutes from podium..and 54TT he'd take that back easily....

than again could be talking out of my arse

Who knows? Where you are talking out of your arse though is buying into the guff that believes Froome has a veto over team selection. Brailsford, as a reasonably autocratic, albeit engaging and empowering one, would never, in a million years, agree to a contract that gave away his right to be the ultimate decision maker. Froome may quite conceivably have contractual guarantees about being team leader for the TdF but that's a very different thing from having a veto over team selection.

 

[Cee Jay]

The


Who knows? Where you are talking out of your arse though is buying into the guff that believes Froome has a veto over team selection. Brailsford, as a reasonably autocratic, albeit engaging and empowering one, would never, in a million years, agree to a contract that gave away his right to be the ultimate decision maker. Froome may quite conceivably have contractual guarantees about being team leader for the TdF but that's a very different thing from having a veto over team selection.

I really believe he has this veto( I'm amazed mind bearing how Brailsford runs things that he'd grant it) Cycling journo's who i respect( oxymoron with the term journo and respect ) have alluded to this( Richard Moore & Fotheringham)
Reading some of Froom'e bio I reckon when it came to negotiations Cound and Froome had Brailsford's pants down.....

 

[Hitchin Exile]

I really believe he has this veto( I'm amazed mind bearing how Brailsford runs things that he'd grant it) Cycling journo's who i respect( oxymoron with the term journo and respect ) have alluded to this( Richard Moore & Fotheringham)
Reading some of Froom'e bio I reckon when it came to negotiations Cound and Froome had Brailsford's pants down.....

Given those two both write for The Guardian and the source of ALL cycling stories in The Guardian is Bradley Wiggins himself, I'm not so sure they are highly credible sources!!