Is there a third case scenario?

Coeus said:
Mowbray did well, created massive value in a couple of players but was unable to address other issues like squad integration, solidarity through tactics and was happy to play games in the media.
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It's kind of odd when you look at it like this: the biggest problems we've had squad wise is consistently playing players out of position or in roles that don't suit them because of how unbalanced the squad is (lack of striker, defensive mid, left back injuries etc etc)

given that we're a team trying to build through youth, wouldn't the simplest option be using our youth lads rather than playing centre mids on the wing, attacking mids as strikers, centre halfs at full back etc?
 


Mowbray did well last season, however it wasn’t clicking this time round due to poor recruitment.

Michael Beale has done worse than Tony with the exact same recruitment, including making us play football that is much worse to watch.

There are no redeeming features of Michael Beale’s Sunderland, while Tony Mowbray’s Sunderland could be exciting to watch.
 
Sgt Pepper said:
We had a better squad last season in the main as well, which has meant both Mowbray and Beale have had a tougher job. We had Stewart and Simms for half of it, plus Diallo (I refuse to call him Amad as if I’m mates with him). Recruitment is to blame for that. That said I do agree the current squad should be doing better, even if it was just performance wise. The most alarming thing for me is the difference in how we play compared to last season and even at the start of this one.
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I think injuries have played a huge part there. @samaistonsrightfoot is on about our strong start to the season up above there (we lost the first two plus the cup game mind) and the number of goals scored, but we had Cirkin fit. We had Huggins fit. We had Roberts fit. Christ we even had Bradley fuckin Dack fit.
 
Mackem00 said:
There isn't a doubt in my mind that this team/squad should be performing much better than it currently is. That it isn't is down to the manager/head coach/coaching team imo.
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Agreed. Mowbray's failing was that he was not a tactician. He had his idea of the best squad and put it out regardless of who the opposition was. His subs were often too late and made little sense to anyone watching. Not picking the more physical players against a physical team is an obvious one. Or, he would often take off our best performing player while leaving a passenger on the pitch. But his man management was excellent, he was great at getting the best out of individuals and looking after young players.

Beale is no tactician and has all the failings Mowbray did. It is worrying how similar his line ups and substitutions are. The last couple of games it has been clear that once the line up is picked, players have no idea where they need to be playing and we have stopped using our greatest asset, the width. His man management seems poor and all the players have generally dropped their level.
 
Mowbray at times last season had Stewart, Simms, Amad, Batth, Evans etc in what was most people would agree a weaker league.

At the moment Beale has a far inferior squad in a stronger division. That is down to the much heralded recruitment team.
 
Twisted said:
It's kind of odd when you look at it like this: the biggest problems we've had squad wise is consistently playing players out of position or in roles that don't suit them because of how unbalanced the squad is (lack of striker, defensive mid, left back injuries etc etc)

given that we're a team trying to build through youth, wouldn't the simplest option be using our youth lads rather than playing centre mids on the wing, attacking mids as strikers, centre halfs at full back etc?
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Youth teams are primarily created for the 1% where there is a chance they will make it at the club keeping them' level. I think we've currently got a group that is the exception where it's believed Rigg, Watson, and Young will be able to play at the current level, It's doubtful that even Johnson who has been in the England set-up will make it. With that in mind, the first team is usually a massive leap.

I don't think we have been massively misplaced squad-wise, we've always had strikers regardless of what's been said, probably our best period in the championship is when it was considered we didn't, Joe G played up there. Defenders we had an injury nightmare with, that's kind of inbuilt into our recruitment, unfortunately, and it hit at the worst time. We remedied that to the point of having too many CB's come January, it's a tricky balance but we've got a lot of players at the minute. Rigg should have been far more involved imo.
 
Twisted said:
It's kind of odd when you look at it like this: the biggest problems we've had squad wise is consistently playing players out of position or in roles that don't suit them because of how unbalanced the squad is (lack of striker, defensive mid, left back injuries etc etc)

given that we're a team trying to build through youth, wouldn't the simplest option be using our youth lads rather than playing centre mids on the wing, attacking mids as strikers, centre halfs at full back etc?
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On paper, we've got loads of balance in terms of fullbacks. We've just got a hideous number of injuries.

Left back
Cirkin
Alese
Hjelde (CB, can cover)

Right back
Hume (can cover both)
Huggins (can cover)
Pembele (was injured months)
Seelt (CB, can cover)

At times we've been forced into various combinations, like Hume LB, Seelt RB. Huggins one side, Hume the other - I'm not sure Mowbray ever worked out which way round to play these two. It almost looked like problem solved with Hjelde's debut, but the adrenaline's worn off and he's looking more like a centre half getting to grips with playing out of position every week - I do think he's capable but he needs a bit more time.


Despite seeming like we only ever sign wingers as opposed to centre forwards, we've had problems there anarl. I like Ba, but he's inconsistent. He had a good run of games earlier in the season where he was actually keeping Roberts out. Then he had a bad couple of months. Roberts, a very valuable player for me, hasn't hit the numbers where goal contributions are concerned. I wasn't panicking too much about this, but then he goes and gets injured and we see what a loss he actually is to the side. Ba at this point has a resurgence, but he still doesn't look like a 90 minutes week in week out player. Now we've lost Roberts again just when it looked like things were looking up again. New signing Mundle aside, were there any back ups in the squad? Jewi fell right out of favour, and I'm not sure where Aouchiche fits in. We're lucky Clarke is as fit and as good as he is. Very lucky. I really don't know who deputises there - Aouchiche? Rusyn??
 
Father Jack Hackett said:
I personally think it’s the former. However, I think Mowbray was exasperated by the whole thing and was happy to part ways.
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This.
And it's been more than hinted at by certain parties that Tony told the board 'in as many words' he couldn't achieve promotion without experience in the squad - so they sacked him and got someone to say "Yes I can"

Up steps Micheal Beale.
 
Mackem00 said:
Problem is now we are inconsistent at best and playing far worse football even if we have a rare decent half. Only one thing has changed to reach this point. For the first time in a long time we are heading into games rightfully expecting the very worst we can put out.
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See, I'm not, but maybe that's just the positive thinking optimistic person I am.



:lol:


Mackem00 said:
Only one thing has changed to reach this point.
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I think injuries are/were killing us, but they don't account for Saturday's second half.
Thatheaderman said:
We look at quite a few of our players through rose tinted gegs.
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There's an element of truth in that like.
 
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Alfa said:
Mowbray at times last season had Stewart, Simms, Amad, Batth, Evans etc in what was most people would agree a weaker league.

At the moment Beale has a far inferior squad in a stronger division. That is down to the much heralded recruitment team.
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Could you point out the sides who are stronger than last season that Beale's Sunderland has had to face? Hull?
chriswallace85 said:
See, I'm not, but maybe that's just the positive thinking optimistic person I am.



:lol:



I think injuries are/were killing us, but they don't account for Saturday's second half.

There's an element of truth in that like.
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That makes you gullible not optimistic Chris mate. ;)
 
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chriswallace85 said:
Or is one of these two correct...

Over 15 months, Tony Mowbray got the most he could out of this squad, with the players he had available. We're a young side, lacking key players, and we're not immune to being bullied at this level, which at times has led to some inconsistent runs of form. Michael Beale, with the same limitations, has also struggled to find consistency with this Sunderland squad.


Over 15 months, despite going long periods without a proven striker, an experienced holding midfielder, and two specialist centre halves, Tony Mowbray, should have been getting more out of this squad - this season in particular. Likewise, Michael Beale, with the problems, should be getting more out of this squad.
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Two

But tbh not much more.
We have bought badly the last few windows imo. Probably 6th-9th is as good as we could have got.
The football has to be enjoyable and at the moment lots of games aren't
 
chriswallace85 said:
Or is one of these two correct...

Over 15 months, Tony Mowbray got the most he could out of this squad, with the players he had available. We're a young side, lacking key players, and we're not immune to being bullied at this level, which at times has led to some inconsistent runs of form. Michael Beale, with the same limitations, has also struggled to find consistency with this Sunderland squad.


Over 15 months, despite going long periods without a proven striker, an experienced holding midfielder, and two specialist centre halves, Tony Mowbray, should have been getting more out of this squad - this season in particular. Likewise, Michael Beale, with the problems, should be getting more out of this squad.
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Mowbray had a far better squad balance at his disposal in terms of youth and experience which helped, and he had Diallo.

The squad now is worse than last season and barring 2 players, (O’Nien and Evans) all experienced heads have been removed.

That leaves you with what we have now, inconsistent kids.

Beale is shite, but Speakman is just as culpable.
 
DaveH said:
Agreed. Mowbray's failing was that he was not a tactician. He had his idea of the best squad and put it out regardless of who the opposition was. His subs were often too late and made little sense to anyone watching. Not picking the more physical players against a physical team is an obvious one. Or, he would often take off our best performing player while leaving a passenger on the pitch. But his man management was excellent, he was great at getting the best out of individuals and looking after young players.

Beale is no tactician and has all the failings Mowbray did. It is worrying how similar his line ups and substitutions are. The last couple of games it has been clear that once the line up is picked, players have no idea where they need to be playing and we have stopped using our greatest asset, the width. His man management seems poor and all the players have generally dropped their level.
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Agree on the first point.

And you may be right - I'm no getting the sense that Beale is a tactical genius either. I wouldn't say we've simply stopped using our width though. We've lost a lot of width not having Cirkin, Huggins, and Roberts available. We have Jack Clarke and Jack Clarke. Ba can and has filled in, but I'm not sure anybody really knows what Ba's best position is - least of all Abdullah Ba.

I think the starting lineups are always going to be similar, as most of the team picks itself. Nobody would drop Clarke, Neil, Patterson, Ballard, O'Nien, or Hume - that's over half ya team sorted from the off. When we've had a fit left back, he goes in to. That's seven. Personally I'd have Roberts in there - criticism of him this season has been appalling if you ask me. There's 8. Who else for midfield? Ekwah's a no brainer to be honest. Now I'm looking around and I'm thinking well if I don't play Jobe, who the frig else do I pick? That leaves the striker, where we've actually got a choice to make, but nobody's convinced any of them are up to the task.

Unless we drastically changed our system, the team picks itself most weeks truth be told. Has for absolutely ages.
offmenut said:
Two

But tbh not much more.
We have bought badly the last few windows imo. Probably 6th-9th is as good as we could have got.
The football has to be enjoyable and at the moment lots of games aren't
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It had stopped being enjoyable quite some time before Beale showed up though. I just don't think some people had quite realised.
 
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chriswallace85 said:
It had stopped being enjoyable quite some time before Beale showed up though. I just don't think some people had quite realised.
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Yeah - millwall away was easily as bad as the last two away games.
Got a lucky point from a pen that never was. Did nowt else against a team just as poor as Birmingham and Huddersfield
However I think our xg under Beale has absolutely plummeted and been far lower than under mowbray
 
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chriswallace85 said:
Agree on the first point.

And you may be right - I'm no getting the sense that Beale is a tactical genius either. I wouldn't say we've simply stopped using our width though. We've lost a lot of width not having Cirkin, Huggins, and Roberts available. We have Jack Clarke and Jack Clarke. Ba can and has filled in, but I'm not sure anybody really knows what Ba's best position is - least of all Abdullah Ba.

I think the starting lineups are always going to be similar, as most of the team picks itself. Nobody would drop Clarke, Neil, Patterson, Ballard, O'Nien, or Hume - that's over half ya team sorted from the off. When we've had a fit left back, he goes in to. That's seven. Personally I'd have Roberts in there - criticism of him this season has been appalling if you ask me. There's 8. Who else for midfield? Ekwah's a no brainer to be honest. Now I'm looking around and I'm thinking well if I don't play Jobe, who the frig else do I pick? That leaves the striker, where we've actually got a choice to make, but nobody's convinced any of them are up to the task.

Unless we drastically changed our system, the team picks itself most weeks truth be told. Has for absolutely ages.

It had stopped being enjoyable quite some time before Beale showed up though. I just don't think some people had quite realised.
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If the team picked itself, it would not include Burstow. It would not continually include Ba and Jobe would have been given more of a rest.

Then we have other players like Aouchiche who looked good initially, with a few saying we had a real talent, who can't get a game. When he does get a brief cameo, he does not look as good as the player we got glimpses of last autumn.
 
Mackem00 said:
Could you point out the sides who are stronger than last season that Beale's Sunderland has had to face? Hull?

That makes you gullible not optimistic Chris mate. ;)
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Preston, maybe.


Naa, gullible isn't the right word in that context.

I'm not at the expecting us to lose games stage like - though I did expect it Saturday all things considered.
DaveH said:
If the team picked itself, it would not include Burstow. It would not continually include Ba and Jobe would have been given more of a rest.

Then we have other players like Aouchiche who looked good initially, with a few saying we had a real talent, who can't get a game. When he does get a brief cameo, he does not look as good as the player we got glimpses of last autumn.
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As I said, the CF spot is the only position where there's a real choice to make.

I'd advocate dropping Jobe, but there's hardly anyone to drop him for. The majority of the team picks itself - surely you must see that?

People twist about Burstow - but he's the one Mowbray gave the most game time to. He's been involved in more wins this season than the rest of them. So that's two head coaches who see him as a viable option, whether we think he's any good or not.
offmenut said:
Yeah - millwall away was easily as bad as the last two away games.
Got a lucky point from a pen that never was. Did nowt else against a team just as poor as Birmingham and Huddersfield
However I think our xg under Beale has absolutely plummeted and been far lower than under mowbray
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Our XG was very high against Huddersfield at home and we lost. The whole XG thing isn't worth getting sucked into for me. We had an XG of 1.1 on Saturday - the third highest of Beale's tenure. The highest was 2.4, and we lost that game 3-0 to Coventry.

In the ten games this season where we've recorded our highest XGs, we've lost 5 of them, drew 1, and won only 4.
 
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