Thatcher and the IRA

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FootballFan said:
I didn't bring up what you said to me in PM because I thought you wanted it private, I accept what you said there.

But the findings of the Saville inquiry are pretty conclusive, you initially called me "stupid" for calling it a peaceful protest. I know that the soldiers say some people were armed or had nail bombs, but they are the only ones who can back this up. The report does say that Martin McGuinness "probably" was armed, although he denies it.
But in any case lets accept the soldiers are right, hypothetically, and as you say somebody was armed, the inquiry is still absolutely conclusive in its findings that no threat was posed to the soldiers:

  • No warning had been given to any civilians before the soldiers opened fire
  • None of the soldiers fired in response to attacks by petrol bombers or stone throwers
  • Some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to help those injured or dying
  • None of the casualties was posing a threat or doing anything that would justify their shooting
  • Many of the soldiers lied about their actions
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It still isn't public, nothing has been said on here about the PM. Do you believe a word that comes out of that murdering bastard Mcguinness? I have agreed with everything stated about Bloody Sunday, the biggest fuck up that day was sending soldiers to police a civil rights march.

It wasn't just soldiers who said there were small arms and nail bombs, there were also reports from people involved in the protest.

Thurston said:
No that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that the republicans couldn't give a fuck if the UK has a head of state, they don't want to be part of the UK, whereas the loyalist communities do. I'm not going to dispute your last point, as it's extremely obvious there's far more benefit staying in the UK than being part of Ireland who are on the bones of their arse because of the Euro, and anyone with half a brain should be able to see that.
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I think you would find a lot of Republicans would vote to stay part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is only the real hardcore element that want a return to a United Ireland. When I say Republicans I mean people who are forced into being a Republican based on their family and upbringing.
 
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Zig81 said:
It still isn't public, nothing has been said on here about the PM. Do you believe a word that comes out of that murdering bastard Mcguinness? I have agreed with everything stated about Bloody Sunday, the biggest fuck up that day was sending soldiers to police a civil rights march.

It wasn't just soldiers who said there were small arms and nail bombs, there were also reports from people involved in the protest.


I think you would find a lot of Republicans would vote to stay part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is only the real hardcore element that want a return to a United Ireland. When I say Republicans I mean people who are forced into being a Republican based on their family and upbringing.
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I think you're probably right with that statement yes, certainly economically within the last few years they're better off being part of Great Britain than the ROI and probably realise that, and I don't think the ROI economically wants or can afford them either. The rest to me now, just seem to be f***ing gangsters who thrive on unrest in the communities.
 
Zig81 said:
It still isn't public, nothing has been said on here about the PM. Do you believe a word that comes out of that murdering bastard Mcguinness? I have agreed with everything stated about Bloody Sunday, the biggest fuck up that day was sending soldiers to police a civil rights march.

It wasn't just soldiers who said there were small arms and nail bombs, there were also reports from people involved in the protest.


I think you would find a lot of Republicans would vote to stay part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is only the real hardcore element that want a return to a United Ireland. When I say Republicans I mean people who are forced into being a Republican based on their family and upbringing.
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Voting in Northern Ireland elections would indicate otherwise. Voting breaks down by religion. Catholics vote nationalist/SDLP/Sinn Fein and Protestants vote for the Unionist parties.

You do realise that in a generation or two there'll be a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland and that an agreed referendum process exists whereby the majority can vote for eventual unification with the Republic, right?
 
Wasn't their allegations of McGuinness going missing for a few minutes, whilst in possession of a Thompson Sub-Machine gun? I'm sure I read that somewhere.
 
Chocolate Fireguard said:
Voting in Northern Ireland elections would indicate otherwise. Voting breaks down by religion. Catholics vote nationalist/SDLP/Sinn Fein and Protestants vote for the Unionist parties.

You do realise that in a generation or two there'll be a Catholic majority in Northern Ireland and that an agreed referendum process exists whereby the majority can vote for eventual unification with the Republic, right?
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Yes, I do realise that and I also realise how the people vote. Without sounding like a cock, I lived there and fully understand how politics in NI work and I also know that a large number of Catholics wish to remain part of the UK.

As I previously said it is only the hardcore element who do not see the benefits. I have been having this discussion for 20 odd years.
 
Brian Griffin said:
It won't happen for generations!

And what if the ROI don't want them back?
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I think they've basically said 'We can't afford you', to the Republicans in N.I.

Like I was saying earlier, it costs the British government 6-7 billion a year to run the Provence, which I can't imagine ROI could afford in the current climate.
 
CheersMarra84 said:
I think they've basically said 'We can't afford you', to the Republicans in N.I.

Like I was saying earlier, it costs the British government 6-7 billion a year to run the Provence, which I can't imagine ROI could afford in the current climate.
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Not sure about that but I know what you mean. There has never really been much impetus to push for a united Ireland coming from the south, the attitude is something like "ah it'd be nice" but beyond that nothing. Maybe that is why Sinn Fein are trying to contest more and more elections in the south of Ireland now.
 
Chocolate Fireguard said:
Let's just have a quick look at the history of all this cold blooded murder. Just the last 100 years will do.

Because that's when the last chance of resolving the situation peaceably was blocked, when the third Home Rule bill was passed. Ulster Unionists terrified at the prospect of the bill meaning eventual Irish rule over Ulster refused to accept the legislation passed by the British parliament and formed a paramilitary army to prevent it happening and set up their own government in Belfast in violation of every applicable law. The British government sent the army to disband the paramilitaries and reestablish the rule of law but the strongly British Protestant officer class mutinied and the government gave in.

From then till the 1960s Ulster was a Protestant fiefdom with Catholics basically living in an apartheid state with second class status. After seeing the civil rights movement in America they though they'd try the same thing to see if they could gain equal rights too and were met by violence and murder from the Protestant authorities. The Protestants used the constant threat (and the liberal use of) violence to help keep the Catholics subjugated for decades and when the Catholics had the temerity to ask for equal rights they were beaten and murdered. This caused the recent era of Irish violence to break out.

During the recent era far more Catholics were killed by the Protestant authorities and protestant terrorist groups than Protestants were killed by Catholics. Pointing these facts out isn't apologising for terrorism or murder just as you taking the side of the British government or Uster Protestants doesn't make you an apologist for their terrorism or murder.

The fact is whether you're talking about Ireland or Palestine or anywhere else if one group of human beings is going to use systematic violence and repression to subjugate a particular ethnic group or religion or colour or some other grouping of human beings then it's inevitable that the oppressed people will eventually use violence in return.

Watch from 4.30 in this video:

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Why go back 100 years ? Why not deal with the present ? This is/was one of the biggest problems in Northern Ireland. Both sides constantly looking back, and reluctant to move forward.

I know the history of the troubles, and I have no problem condemning all violence. But the response by the IRA to the oppression and so called apartheid state was never justified. The American civil rights movement never moved to violence like the violent men and women of Northern Ireland did. It's no coincidence that their struggle, in all intents and purposes, ended long before those in NI.
 
Zig81 said:
Yes, I do realise that and I also realise how the people vote. Without sounding like a cock, I lived there and fully understand how politics in NI work and I also know that a large number of Catholics wish to remain part of the UK.

As I previously said it is only the hardcore element who do not see the benefits. I have been having this discussion for 20 odd years.
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I agree the majority of Catholics are happy with the current setup but 30 years ago Scottish support for independence was in the single digits. I'm pretty sure the Unionist element won't mellow much over the nest few decades though. :)

Right now Catholics are 40% of Northern Ireland's population and republican/nationalist parties get 40% of the vote and the Catholic population is going to keep increasing as a percentage of total population. Predictions are difficult, especially about the future but I have a feeling that at some point in the future a Catholic a republican/nationalist coalition will be in a position to call and win a referendum.

Narraback said:
Why go back 100 years ? Why not deal with the present ? This is/was one of the biggest problems in Northern Ireland. Both sides constantly looking back, and reluctant to move forward.

I know the history of the troubles, and I have no problem condemning all violence. But the response by the IRA to the oppression and so called apartheid state was never justified. The American civil rights movement never moved to violence like the violent men and women of Northern Ireland did. It's no coincidence that their struggle, in all intents and purposes, ended long before those in NI.
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I agree that the response by the IRA to the initial repression wasn't justified. I don't agree about the so called apartheid state bit. If you're living three families to a substandard slum, have no chance of employment and are heavily discriminated against regarding education, healthcare and everything else the state provides on the basis of your religion then you're living in an actual apartheid state, not a so called apartheid state.

The American civil rights movement was not a homogenous thing and many elements of it were in fact violent. And the civil rights movement had varying degrees of support of the federal government (to allow integration in schools and so on) until the feds actually passed the civil rights act. Black Americans felt that the government was actually on their side because it actually was, and the government passed an equal rights act as soon as it possibly could which ended their struggle. By contrast Ulster Catholics had the full weight of the state against them. Their peaceful campaign for equal rights was met by systematic violence by the state and by Ulster Protestants. The violence instigated by the violent men of Northern Ireland triggered the IRA response. Had the repression and the violence not existed in the first place there would have been no retaliatory violence by the IRA.
 
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TwasOnTheFifthOfMay said:
Maybe people will stop having Catholic children.
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A Catholic child has never been born. We are all born without religion, but many of us are indoctrinated into religion without our permission. Although that is a different discussion altogether, it is relevant in this debate.

Chocolate Fireguard said:
I agree the majority of Catholics are happy with the current setup but 30 years ago Scottish support for independence was in the single digits. I'm pretty sure the Unionist element won't mellow much over the nest few decades though. :)

Right now Catholics are 40% of Northern Ireland's population and republican/nationalist parties get 40% of the vote and the Catholic population is going to keep increasing as a percentage of total population. Predictions are difficult, especially about the future but I have a feeling that at some point in the future a Catholic a republican/nationalist coalition will be in a position to call and win a referendum.



I agree that the response by the IRA to the initial repression wasn't justified. I don't agree about the so called apartheid state bit. If you're living three families to a substandard slum, have no chance of employment and are heavily discriminated against regarding education, healthcare and everything else the state provides on the basis of your religion then you're living in an actual apartheid state, not a so called apartheid state.

The American civil rights movement was not a homogenous thing and many elements of it were in fact violent. And the civil rights movement had varying degrees of support of the federal government (to allow integration in schools and so on) until the feds actually passed the civil rights act. Black Americans felt that the government was actually on their side because it actually was, and the government passed an equal rights act as soon as it possibly could which ended their struggle. By contrast Ulster Catholics had the full weight of the state against them. Their peaceful campaign for equal rights was met by systematic violence by the state and by Ulster Protestants. The violence instigated by the violent men of Northern Ireland triggered the IRA response. Had the repression and the violence not existed in the first place there would have been no retaliatory violence by the IRA.
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Once again you are going back a very long time. I was brought up watching the troubles in the 70's and 80's, and the persecution of the Catholics I read about and watched on TV documentaries never justified the bloodshed I witnessed. Especially the cold blooded, indiscrminate murder of innocent men, women, children.

I have no problem condemning all the violence which happened during the troubles. It appears many on this thread, some of whom don't wish to be called apologists, have a problem doing the same.
 
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Narraback said:
A Catholic child has never been born. We are all born without religion, but many of us are indoctrinated into religion without our permission. Although that is a different discussion altogether, it is relevant in this debate.



Once again you are going back a very long time. I was brought up watching the troubles in the 70's and 80's, and the persecution of the Catholics I read about and watched on TV documentaries never justified the bloodshed I witnessed. Especially the cold blooded, indiscrminate murder of innocent men, women, children.

I have no problem condemning all the violence which happened during the troubles. It appears many on this thread, some of whom don't wish to be called apologists, have a problem doing the same.
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So the cold blooded, indiscriminate murder of innocent Catholic men, women and children by the state and by Ulster protestants doesn't justify the Catholics doing the same thing in reply. It appears one of the people on this thread calling others apologists for terrorism needs to look in the mirror.
 
Chocolate Fireguard said:
So the cold blooded, indiscriminate murder of innocent Catholic men, women and children by the state and by Ulster protestants doesn't justify the Catholics doing the same thing in reply. It appears one of the people on this thread calling others apologists for terrorism needs to look in the mirror.
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I've condemned all of the violence. Some people on here who claim not to be apologists for the IRA have not.
 
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