The posts I quoted show otherwise.
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The posts I quoted show otherwise.
Harry Angstrom
Striker
What do you disagree with?
I'm getting bored with this now. I've quoted your posts where you've completely contradict yourself, you've tried unsuccessfully to wriggle out of it , and now you're asking me yet more questions which I've answered previously.
Harry Angstrom
Striker
You have avoided saying anything on the subject but said nothing over and over again.
What do you disagree with? What would you suppress? If you don't want to discuss it fair enough.
He doesn't contradict himself at all. You're either unwillingly to accept his views for whatever reason or you don't understand the difference between opinion and intent.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
To conclude this look at Kommandant Kramer's management of the hospital camp at Belsen he was in charge of, regarding food and water:
Kramer cross-examined by Colonel Backhouse:
Now the question of the water supply. How far was the river from the camp? - Several hundred metres.
About how many, 200, 300? - From the inhabited men's camp, 400 to 500 metres.
Why did you not pump water from the river? - I had no apparatus and or no material to get the water from the river.
Do you know British troops did it with the material that was in the camp? - Perhaps in the Wehrmacht barracks, but not in my camp.
Did it never occur to you to march some prisoners down to the river and let them get a drink? - No, and furthermore Major Lomann from the Wehrmacht barracks told me that the water of the river Meisse was not fit for drinking.
Is not that the water which was pumped to the camp at any time? - No, the pumps worked with other water.
Do you know that that is the water that has been used for the camp ever since? - No.
You were using water out of the concrete tanks in the camp, were you not? - Yes.
Have you heard what filth there was in those tanks, have you not? - I have had these ponds were pumped out and cleaned about 14 days beforehand.
You know what filth was found in these cisterns, do you not? - No, I only know that when these ponds were pumped out for the first time there was dirt in them; later on I do not know.
Why did you not ever go to the General and tell him exactly what was happening in your camp? - Because the General would not have been able to help me.
Was it not because you were frightened to tell any decent person what was going on in your camp? - No.
Was it not for precisely the same reason that you were not allowed to talk about the gas chambers?
So Kramer who had admitted to seeing prisoners die by the thousands day after day from thirst and starvation, took no steps to provide either food or water in their final suffering, surrounded by tens of thousands of decomposing corpses from the latrine trench outside each hut where they had been dumped to huge piles all over the camp. There were even decomposing corpses floating in the concrete tank that he used to prepare the flavoured water he calls soup. Oh but near the end, as the British approached, he did authorise some potatoes to be added to the soup to make it more nourishing. He says he could not ask the Officer in charge of the Army food store for any more food because that Officer would have refused. Yet, a subordinate of Kramer in charge of only part of the Belsen camp made such a request that was fulfilled. Kramer appears to have little regard for the Wehrmacht and little respect for the authority of his own rank of Kommandant. These people have too little food to live and too much to die, as the man said.....so why bother.
Regarding the water, a fresh water river was less than 500 yards from the camp yet he preferred to use water from the clearly contaminated concrete tank to prepare the prisoners starvation supply of flavoured water he called soup. The British established a fully working pumped supply within days using equipment already in the camp. Kramer says if he had approached the Army for help, he would have been refused, although manpower was not an issue. He also says the Army told him not to use the river as it was contaminated (it was not). Even if it was, I expect the water from a free flowing river to be more desirable and safer than that from an open concrete tank with decomposing bodies floating in it. Kramer certainly likes to blame the Wehrmacht for his lack of action. Actions so lacking that he didn't even bother to ask. Let them die, why should you care, the man said.
But this is Kommandant Josef Kramer, respected officer of the SS, who states he believes in God and realises he is speaking under oath. Honest Joe, who on arrest made an affidavit under the same oath in which he denied there had been gas chambers at Auschwitz, despite being in command at Birkenau. Understandable. He supervised their construction and actively took part in the first gassing of 80 women for medical research at a university.
I don't need to be an academic to read the Belsen trial transcript, which also covers events at Auschwitz as that is where Kramer and his little gang came from to Belsen. Considering the appalling state within the huts on a night and the rampant disease such as typhus, Kramer introduces appell or roll call. This could last in the freezing cold for several hours with tragic consequences. Then the endless work carrying corpses to the pit, if you died then someone would pick you up and take you. The SS knew that cannibalism had broken out, but still Kramer made no attempt to acquire fresh water from a river less than 500 metres away or sufficient food for anything more than a diet he admits a healthy man could only live for weeks on in what was a hospital camp, primarily for women. Wasn't Birkenau the women's camp at Auschwitz. Maybe Kramer just didn't like women. Poor misunderstood Kramer, he makes himself sound like a saint, and those horrible Wehrmacht people who were really to blame for his presence in court. If ever a man was full of shit, this must be that man and I don't need an academic to tell me that. I just need to read the transcript of the trial from 1945.
It is clear that the long experienced Kramer oversaw the wilful mass murder of tens of thousands of people from lack of hygiene, illness, thirst and starvation as surely as if he had led them to the gas chambers himself, which of course he had previously done when they were available.
This is the poor misunderstood Kramer on the right with his pals Mengele of the left and Hoess.
Kramer cross-examined by Colonel Backhouse:
Now the question of the water supply. How far was the river from the camp? - Several hundred metres.
About how many, 200, 300? - From the inhabited men's camp, 400 to 500 metres.
Why did you not pump water from the river? - I had no apparatus and or no material to get the water from the river.
Do you know British troops did it with the material that was in the camp? - Perhaps in the Wehrmacht barracks, but not in my camp.
Did it never occur to you to march some prisoners down to the river and let them get a drink? - No, and furthermore Major Lomann from the Wehrmacht barracks told me that the water of the river Meisse was not fit for drinking.
Is not that the water which was pumped to the camp at any time? - No, the pumps worked with other water.
Do you know that that is the water that has been used for the camp ever since? - No.
You were using water out of the concrete tanks in the camp, were you not? - Yes.
Have you heard what filth there was in those tanks, have you not? - I have had these ponds were pumped out and cleaned about 14 days beforehand.
You know what filth was found in these cisterns, do you not? - No, I only know that when these ponds were pumped out for the first time there was dirt in them; later on I do not know.
Why did you not ever go to the General and tell him exactly what was happening in your camp? - Because the General would not have been able to help me.
Was it not because you were frightened to tell any decent person what was going on in your camp? - No.
Was it not for precisely the same reason that you were not allowed to talk about the gas chambers?
So Kramer who had admitted to seeing prisoners die by the thousands day after day from thirst and starvation, took no steps to provide either food or water in their final suffering, surrounded by tens of thousands of decomposing corpses from the latrine trench outside each hut where they had been dumped to huge piles all over the camp. There were even decomposing corpses floating in the concrete tank that he used to prepare the flavoured water he calls soup. Oh but near the end, as the British approached, he did authorise some potatoes to be added to the soup to make it more nourishing. He says he could not ask the Officer in charge of the Army food store for any more food because that Officer would have refused. Yet, a subordinate of Kramer in charge of only part of the Belsen camp made such a request that was fulfilled. Kramer appears to have little regard for the Wehrmacht and little respect for the authority of his own rank of Kommandant. These people have too little food to live and too much to die, as the man said.....so why bother.
Regarding the water, a fresh water river was less than 500 yards from the camp yet he preferred to use water from the clearly contaminated concrete tank to prepare the prisoners starvation supply of flavoured water he called soup. The British established a fully working pumped supply within days using equipment already in the camp. Kramer says if he had approached the Army for help, he would have been refused, although manpower was not an issue. He also says the Army told him not to use the river as it was contaminated (it was not). Even if it was, I expect the water from a free flowing river to be more desirable and safer than that from an open concrete tank with decomposing bodies floating in it. Kramer certainly likes to blame the Wehrmacht for his lack of action. Actions so lacking that he didn't even bother to ask. Let them die, why should you care, the man said.
But this is Kommandant Josef Kramer, respected officer of the SS, who states he believes in God and realises he is speaking under oath. Honest Joe, who on arrest made an affidavit under the same oath in which he denied there had been gas chambers at Auschwitz, despite being in command at Birkenau. Understandable. He supervised their construction and actively took part in the first gassing of 80 women for medical research at a university.
I don't need to be an academic to read the Belsen trial transcript, which also covers events at Auschwitz as that is where Kramer and his little gang came from to Belsen. Considering the appalling state within the huts on a night and the rampant disease such as typhus, Kramer introduces appell or roll call. This could last in the freezing cold for several hours with tragic consequences. Then the endless work carrying corpses to the pit, if you died then someone would pick you up and take you. The SS knew that cannibalism had broken out, but still Kramer made no attempt to acquire fresh water from a river less than 500 metres away or sufficient food for anything more than a diet he admits a healthy man could only live for weeks on in what was a hospital camp, primarily for women. Wasn't Birkenau the women's camp at Auschwitz. Maybe Kramer just didn't like women. Poor misunderstood Kramer, he makes himself sound like a saint, and those horrible Wehrmacht people who were really to blame for his presence in court. If ever a man was full of shit, this must be that man and I don't need an academic to tell me that. I just need to read the transcript of the trial from 1945.
It is clear that the long experienced Kramer oversaw the wilful mass murder of tens of thousands of people from lack of hygiene, illness, thirst and starvation as surely as if he had led them to the gas chambers himself, which of course he had previously done when they were available.
This is the poor misunderstood Kramer on the right with his pals Mengele of the left and Hoess.
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Did you see the posts from him I quoted in post#104? He says that people should be allowed to say what they want and it's a measure of a good democracy if they can do so regardless of who they offend. He then goes on to say people should be prosecuted for saying some things.
I'm very happy with the laws we have in place regarding speech.
Harry Angstrom
Striker
What are your thoughts on the restrictions they have in other parts of the EU? Regarding criminalising holocaust denial in particular.
Post#104 is a different poster.
TwasOnTheFifthOfMay
Striker
Perhaps this is where you're going wrong. People should make up their own minds, but they often need protecting from the malicious propagation of information which is already known to be false, so they can make a well informed decision.
As I said earlier, and others too, you can't suppress thoughts, just how widely people are allowed to broadcast them without the immediacy of critical response.
Mercia Blackcat
Striker
You mean those places that suffered greatly from the holocaust? I think that's up to them to decide.
I don't agree with them, but if I were in those countries I wouldn't break them because I respect the laws of which ever country I visit.
Harry Angstrom
Striker
Who protects them?
So have haven't read the quotes, or what he said earlier in the thread, but you feel qualified to comment?
It's post #140
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/david-irving.1127359/page-7
@Harry Angstrom
Are there subjects which you would like to speak about, but believe the laws of this country restrict you from doing so?
Harry Angstrom
Striker
Why not? Are you saying people should be allowed to broadcast their thoughts and ideas even if they are unpalatable to many?
Why? Guilt?
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I think the laws we have in this country are better. There are many laws I don't agree with, here and especially abroad, but I abide by them. I bet Irving wished he'd done the same.
I'll repeat because you seem reluctant to answer my question. Are there any subjects on which you wish to speak but feel the laws of this country restrict you?
He says that everyone should be allowed to express an opinion. Not that they should be able to say anything without repercussions.
TwasOnTheFifthOfMay
Striker
The government.
No he didn't.
If the question is purely whether the ideas being expressed are unpalatable, then there is no case for suppression of free speech.
The reason (iirc) Poland and Germany have laws against holocaust denial is because they have perceived there is a serious danger of extremists causing substantial harm to the country using this as part of their tactics. Their feelings about this didn't come out of thin air. I'm not sure I agree with their approach but I understand why they have these concerns.
As a general rule though, I think there are times when expression of an idea or at the very least, public allegations that someone makes, could cause so much damage, disruption or mass panic that it's just not practical to sit back, let it all play out and then try and sort it out afterwards.
I also think that in your heart of hearts you agree with me and you're just disagreeing for the sake of it.
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