Elderly Care / Power of Attorney / Private Testing

zippie said:
Lasting POA for Finance and Health, I had it for my Mam able to act on her behalf as she was housebound. She still had capacity till the end and made all her own decisions, I just carried them out for her.
Click to expand...
So you didn’t use poa as she made the decisions.
POA is explicitly about decisions, not actions.

Like I said it’s a common misconception that POA gives the attorney any power at all until the person lacks capacity. Companies may look at you more favourably but it gives no legal rights until the person lacks capacity.
The person has capacity and has delegated responsibilities, therefore the POA is not active as it’s a capacitated decision.

www.gov.uk

Make, register or end a lasting power of attorney

How to make a lasting power of attorney (LPA): starting an application online, choosing an attorney, certifying a copy, changing an LPA.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
Last edited:


rudd said:
So you didn’t use poa as she made the decisions.
POA is explicitly about decisions, not actions.

Like I said it’s a common misconception that POA gives the attorney any power at all until the person lacks capacity. Companies may look at you more favourably but it gives no legal rights. The person has capacity and has delegated responsibilities, therefore the POA is not active as it’s a capacitated decision.

www.gov.uk

Make, register or end a lasting power of attorney

How to make a lasting power of attorney (LPA): starting an application online, choosing an attorney, certifying a copy, changing an LPA.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
Click to expand...
I could only do the tasks based on me going to the bank and providing them with my ID and the Documents for the LPOA. I am not the only one on the board who has/is used the LPOA in this way. I feel like your trying to say I have done something underhand.
 
Last edited:
zippie said:
I could only do the tasks based on me going to the bank and providing them with my ID and the Documents for the LPOA. I am not the only one on the board who has/is used the LPOA in this way. I feel like your trying to say I have done something underhand.
Click to expand...
Not underhand. I don’t know you at all and wouldn’t make such an assumption, sorry if you felt that way. Just you didn’t have the legal backing you thought you did.

The bank done the right thing taking the power of attorney document but they fucked up if you were going there and making decisions around money unless your mother had told them you could (in which case PoA wasn’t valid as it’s a capacitated decision) or they had notice that you mother lacked capacity, then the PoA document gives you the legal right.

It happens all the time. The law is clear that about the limitations of POA and the Mental Capacity Act is explicit that all people should be assumed to have capacity until proven otherwise.

Both POA are MCA are terribly applied and need reforming. Even social workers get it wrong and we’ve ended up in some messy safeguarding meetings because of it.
 
rudd said:
Not underhand. I don’t know you at all and wouldn’t make such an assumption, sorry if you felt that way. Just you didn’t have the legal backing you thought you did.

The bank done the right thing taking the power of attorney document but they fucked up if you were going there and making decisions around money unless your mother had told them you could (in which case PoA wasn’t valid as it’s a capacitated decision) or they had notice that you mother lacked capacity, then the PoA document gives you the legal right.

It happens all the time. The law is clear that about the limitations of POA and the Mental Capacity Act is explicit that all people should be assumed to have capacity until proven otherwise.

Both POA are MCA are terribly applied and need reforming. Even social workers get it wrong and we’ve ended up in some messy safeguarding meetings because of it.
Click to expand...
As I no longer have the paperwork I can only go with what is on the Gov website.

As a property and financial affairs attorney, you make (or help the donor make) decisions about things like:

  • money, tax and bills
  • bank and building society accounts
  • property and investments
  • pensions and benefits
You can start making decisions while the donor still has mental capacity if both:

  • the lasting power of attorney (LPA) says you can
  • the donor gives you permission
Otherwise, you can only start making decisions when they do not have mental capacity.

You can use the donor’s money to look after their home and buy anything they need day to day (for example, food).


Believe me I know someone who took massive advantage of having POA for someone without capacity, and they served a good couple of year as they used the funds for their lifestyle and not his mothers.

All in all it is a awful situation to be in, I'm going to sort mine now as i've just read if you have joint bank accounts and one loses capacity then the bank can freeze the account.
 
Goat Eyes said:
I’ve used printouts and scans loads plus have sent off and had returned the originals. Does it cost you for additional copies?
Click to expand...

You receive a certified copy of a court order from a judge. An institution worth its salt would want to see the original. If you therefore need to send it via post I'd suggest having several certified copies. A judge doesn't sign for free I'm afraid. Yes it costs. You should get it back when they are satisfied it is all in order.
 
cruze said:
You receive a certified copy of a court order from a judge. An institution worth its salt would want to see the original. If you therefore need to send it via post I'd suggest having several certified copies. A judge doesn't sign for free I'm afraid. Yes it costs. You should get it back when they are satisfied it is all in order.
Click to expand...
I see what you’re saying but I’ve only sent it once for my dad and it was for his pension. Everything else, banks, utilities, doctors, care providers have been happy with a digital scan or photocopy.

Probably goes back to what Rudd is saying above.
 
rudd said:
Not underhand. I don’t know you at all and wouldn’t make such an assumption, sorry if you felt that way. Just you didn’t have the legal backing you thought you did.

The bank done the right thing taking the power of attorney document but they fucked up if you were going there and making decisions around money unless your mother had told them you could (in which case PoA wasn’t valid as it’s a capacitated decision) or they had notice that you mother lacked capacity, then the PoA document gives you the legal right.

It happens all the time. The law is clear that about the limitations of POA and the Mental Capacity Act is explicit that all people should be assumed to have capacity until proven otherwise.

Both POA are MCA are terribly applied and need reforming. Even social workers get it wrong and we’ve ended up in some messy safeguarding meetings because of it.
Click to expand...

Some good points here. LPOA is a legal arrangement set in place by someone who has capacity for a time when they may lack capacity to make decisions. Any other arrangement with a financial body is a different and local arrangement by that body alone and not led by a court order. Read the court order for clarity.

Deputyship is the process to follow when applying for a person who lacks capacity at the time of applying.

Like said I'd make sure you have records of transactions and records as the Court should ask for these as a supervising officer will be appointed when capacity is lacking and the appointed person has legal responsibilities to do so.

Like said, determining lack of capacity can be difficult and comes from a couple of pieces of legislation, namely the Mental Health Act and more recently supported by the Mental Capacity Act which serves to make the position more clear in law.

The MHA refers to provisions in the act mainly around detention, such as Section 2 and subsequently Section 3, which requires an assessment by a psychiatrist (sometimes more than one) and if required, an approved mental health social worker to determine capacity and need for detention under the provisions of the act.

The MCA requires a capacity assessment by a social worker to determine continued care arrangements in the best interests of the person and normally happens in a care setting where letting the person leave would be detrimental to their care needs. Such instances would be seen as deprivation of liberty if not legally obtained. These social worker have specific training in this law. Like said already this is complicated as the law isn't always too clear but safeguarding meetings are there to provide clarity and record decisions.
Goat Eyes said:
I see what you’re saying but I’ve only sent it once for my dad and it was for his pension. Everything else, banks, utilities, doctors, care providers have been happy with a digital scan or photocopy.

Probably goes back to what Rudd is saying above.
Click to expand...
That's fine if they are happy. Just my experience over the years
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Have been through some of this recently myself and one thing that helped was getting appointed a social worker, as mentioned above. On the Sunderland city website there's a form to complete re adult social care, I'd imagine it's the same there. The response was surprisingly quick and they have been surprisingly supportive working with hospitals, OH, other services and care homes as needed, including advising me. May not always be like that but no harm trying. Good luck, it's a very stressful time.
 
The Great Soprendo said:
Have been through some of this recently myself and one thing that helped was getting appointed a social worker, as mentioned above. On the Sunderland city website there's a form to complete re adult social care, I'd imagine it's the same there. The response was surprisingly quick and they have been surprisingly supportive working with hospitals, OH, other services and care homes as needed, including advising me. May not always be like that but no harm trying. Good luck, it's a very stressful time.
Click to expand...
That was my experience too in Northumberland, my Mam was appointed a care manager and also a social worker. She is now in a care home and a deprivation of liberty assessment as well as a mental capacity assessment were undertaken. It's not an easy path to navigate but the care manager we had in particular was a gem.
 
shields_supporter said:
Dear all,

Sorry been a bit quiet

Has been some truly wonderful and informative replies.

Unfortunately, as we were on the plane to the UK, he fell off his toilet and smashed his face up.

We landed and drive straight to hospital only to find that they’d forgotten to give him any fluids or food since breakfast (this was 7pm)

They also had him plank flat on a bed.

Managed to get him sat up, able to see people, quickly bought some fluids and they brought him 2 yoghurts!!

Staying in a hotel near the hospital - he’s had a CT now, no bleeding, they did a full viral/bacterial check but still no results and he’s been moved out of the A&E ward.

Distressing as fuck - gone from making dirty jokes three weeks ago to sounding as if he’s been lobotomised.

Doctors ‘Not available’ and nursing staff can only tell so much.

Monday tomorrow so will start on the paperwork trail -

What a f***ing world we live in
Oh and the A&E ward was more mental than anything I’ve seen before. Screaming, effing and blinding, crying, cops all over - people asking me to help them escape 😳
Click to expand...
Sorry that you are going though this. But in my experience the fact he is now in hospital is probably a good thing. The hospital care my dad had was much more joined up with social care than the GP surgery was. Although obviously it depends on the trust, the hospital and the GP surgery.

If he's got a bob or two he is probably stuck paying for care until he has been assessed as having a medical need for it. You'll maybe get a couple of weeks after he is discharged paid for, but it doesn't last long and the council care team seemed a lot more rushed than the private care we had afterwards.

The fact he has LPOAs in place is very helpful, but as others have noted above it can be difficult to use them without the person being declared to no longer have capacity, and that is a massive hurdle to overcome. I kept getting told that he has capacity, he is just making poor decisions...
 
How detailed have people been with their instructions?

I’m struggling to balance a broad “just act in my best interests as you perceive it at the time”…..with a list of specific instructions that could go on and on…
 
DaveI said:
How detailed have people been with their instructions?

I’m struggling to balance a broad “just act in my best interests as you perceive it at the time”…..with a list of specific instructions that could go on and on…
Click to expand...
Not specific at all in the case of the PoAs I did for my parents. I had a separate chat about them after we'd done the PoAs about what they wanted in relation to things like DNRs and funeral arrangements etc. Not easy, but defintiely worth doing
Dark Traveller said:
Anybody know how long after transferring payment for the POA stuff does it take after admin fees are done?
Click to expand...

Not long IIRC, not more than a couple of weeks, it was before Covid though so it might have all gone slower now
 

Back
Top