Male Suicide debate on the BBC

[dangermows]

The book.

You’ve not read the book, written by a woman looking into men’s issues while simultaneously complaining the women don’t take men’s issues seriously.

What exactly do you f***ing want?

Ive not complained 'that women dont take mens issues seriously'.

Sadly it sounds like the author hasn't got it right with this book, which is a shame.

Edit. No need to be so aggressive about it.

 

[Mackem00]

Ooof

What About Men? by Caitlin Moran review – bantz gone bad

A tendentious take on masculinity that takes unoriginal thoughts and confirms them in the echo chamber of Twitter

www.google.com

Getting a bit of a sanctimonious bellend vibe from that particular reviewer mind DM marra.

 

[CPLforever]

Well you’ve read it so I’ll bow to your knowledge, but in that microcosm where you boiled it down men have the perception that they’re less well off when they’re really better off than most is not true to any great extent. It’s simply that any suggestion of support for white, heterosexual men is met with an appalling level of ‘but women/black people/gay people/trans people’.

So while I’m sure that there’s more to the author’s postulation than just this but in that microcosm it sounds like the problem with men is that they incorrectly perceive they’re worse off than other groups. Women (like the subject of this thread) who are hostile towards men’s issues can hardly complain when men decide to stop caring about women’s issues and follow the likes of Tate.

I read the post

Can I just get clarity here cos not sure whether the two books quoted are getting mixed up/merged and when I am reading your comments i don't exactly know where or with whom your criticism lies?

Caitlin Moran's book...What about men discusses how she feels there is not enough conversation around how men are a very often marginalised group and problems they face sometimes seem to be seen as less important.

Caroline Perez' book Invisible women is the more academic book that states although men seem to be saying men have got it worse, statistics don't seem to bear this out

You could of course be criticising both.

Depends on where “the evidence” comes from, it’s context, it’s parameters, and whether or not it’s complete. Not to mention how it’s presented, and with what motivation.

All part of the huckster industry that’s sprung up, whereby you tell people they’re victims of something or oppressed by someone, and then sell them books/podcasts/self help etc on the back of this disturbing “revelation”.

You are not seriously saying that in the world today women are not victims of the most appalling oppression and instead are suffering from victim Hood?

No, I must have misunderstood your post.

Ok, well I've actually read the book, and it's a good faith attempt at explaining issues men today face, and where those issues often have the same root cause as issues women face. Some of it is a bit simplistic, but there's no "but women" about it.

Incidentally, I also went to hear her speak about the book, and again, I'll say it was very much a discussion about the issues men face. The audience was 90% women.

Which book? The Caitlin Moran book or the Caroline Perez book?

 

[HoxtonMackem]

Vast majority of women are in solidarity with men in wanting support for people who need it, but sadly there is a very tiny amount of feminists/equality campaigners who have no interest at all in equality between the sexes, and they actually want women to have an advantage and men to not have something women have.

Spot on.

 

[Boris Bear]

Can I just get clarity here cos not sure whether the two books quoted are getting mixed up/merged and when I am reading your comments i don't exactly know where or with whom your criticism lies?

Caitlin Moran's book...What about men discusses how she feels there is not enough conversation around how men are a very often marginalised group and problems they face sometimes seem to be seen as less important.

Caroline Perez' book Invisible women is the more academic book that states although men seem to be saying men have got it worse, statistics don't seem to bear this out

You could of course be criticising both.

You are not seriously saying that in the world today women are not victims of the most appalling oppression and instead are suffering from victim Hood?

No, I must have misunderstood your post.

Which book? The Caitlin Moran book or the Caroline Perez book?

I haven't read either but from what I read into Hellsbells comment it seemed to be saying that men perceive they're worse off when in reality they're (as a demographic) relatively better off than everyone else. I paraphrase of course, but it's of no consequence if someone is worse off...when you need support you need support, not to be told your not as badly off as someone else. I think that what the male panellist was highlighting is there's outright hostility to suggestion that men's issues need specific support on the grounds that women have issues too and more of them. I think that women should get more support; men too.

 

[CPLforever]

I haven't read either but from what I read into Hellsbells comment it seemed to be saying that men perceive they're worse off when in reality they're (as a demographic) relatively better off than everyone else. I paraphrase of course, but it's of no consequence if someone is worse off...when you need support you need support, not to be told your not as badly off as someone else. I think that what the male panellist was highlighting is there's outright hostility to suggestion that men's issues need specific support on the grounds that women have issues too and more of them. I think that women should get more support; men too.

So I suppose you are critical of Caroline Perez' book then cos Caitlin Moran is saying exactly what you have said above that men's issues have been sidelined.

To be fair of course Hellsbells has read both books and thinks both are interesting and have some merit.

 

[HellsBells]

I haven't read either but from what I read into Hellsbells comment it seemed to be saying that men perceive they're worse off when in reality they're (as a demographic) relatively better off than everyone else. I paraphrase of course, but it's of no consequence if someone is worse off...when you need support you need support, not to be told your not as badly off as someone else. I think that what the male panellist was highlighting is there's outright hostility to suggestion that men's issues need specific support on the grounds that women have issues too and more of them. I think that women should get more support; men too.

Yes, you don’t need to be told you’ve got it better than someone else, I agree. And I think Ava fucked up in that regard. We do need to look into male suicide rates, as a country, and I’ve said this before, many times on this board during conversations about feminism.

The point about Caitlin Moran I was making is that the reason she wrote the book is that many boys were approaching her on her tour about feminism (she’s written a couple of books) and expressing anger that “feminism has gone too far” and that men now have it worse than women. Her point was that, in many cases that’s not true and the data holds out, but she wanted to understand why boys believed that despite the evidence to the contrary. She’s not telling them they shouldn’t complain because women have it worse.

Her argument is that there is a gap that feminism hasn’t addressed and young men are being left without anyone advocating for them. Except people like Andrew Tate.

This podcast is shorter than the book.

What about men?: Caitlin Moran | Reasons to be Cheerful

Is the patriarchy also screwing over men too? Caitlin Moran thinks so. Twelve years on from the publication of her hit book ‘How to Be a Woman,’ the journalist and author turns her attention to men, and why she thinks the lack of an equivalent movement to feminism has left many you

www.cheerfulpodcast.com

So I suppose you are critical of Caroline Perez' book then cos Caitlin Moran is saying exactly what you have said above that men's issues have been sidelined.

To be fair of course Hellsbells has read both books and thinks both are interesting and have some merit.

Tbh I haven’t read Moran’s book yet, it’s waiting for me. Im almost finished Perez’s.

@Muppet has read both.

 

[Boris Bear]

So I suppose you are critical of Caroline Perez' book then cos Caitlin Moran is saying exactly what you have said above that men's issues have been sidelined.

To be fair of course Hellsbells has read both books and thinks both are interesting and have some merit.

Sounds like it. I think other views are interesting even if I don't necessarily agree with them and when they're well articulated it gives me pause for thought.

 

[Yahrba]

Sounds like major disagreement in the chattering classes .

 

[Boris Bear]

Yes, you don’t need to be told you’ve got it better than someone else, I agree. And I think Ava fucked up in that regard. We do need to look into male suicide rates, as a country, and I’ve said this before, many times on this board during conversations about feminism.

The point about Caitlin Moran I was making is that the reason she wrote the book is that many boys were approaching her on her tour about feminism (she’s written a couple of books) and expressing anger that “feminism has gone too far” and that men now have it worse than women. Her point was that, in many cases that’s not true and the data holds out, but she wanted to understand why boys believed that despite the evidence to the contrary. She’s not telling them they shouldn’t complain because women have it worse.

Her argument is that there is a gap that feminism hasn’t addressed and young men are being left without anyone advocating for them. Except people like Andrew Tate.

This podcast is shorter than the book.

What about men?: Caitlin Moran | Reasons to be Cheerful

Is the patriarchy also screwing over men too? Caitlin Moran thinks so. Twelve years on from the publication of her hit book ‘How to Be a Woman,’ the journalist and author turns her attention to men, and why she thinks the lack of an equivalent movement to feminism has left many you

www.cheerfulpodcast.com

Tbh I haven’t read Moran’s book yet, it’s waiting for me. Im almost finished Perez’s.

@Muppet has read both.

I think Ava came across as hostile to a very well articulated point and that's what people will remember...that she had no space for the notion that men might have specific issues that need help. Male suicide is a horrendous statistic and to glibly write that off as because women are not as successful at suicide is disgusting. She needs to have a good think about what she said but is already becoming the victim of a pile on.

On the subject of men's issues more generally I think female perspective is essential because one of the issues we have is that we're less likely to work through our issues.

On the argument of whether feminism has gone too far, I think that where it sets women against men it probably has but I don't think that's at all representative of feminism, in the same way as meninism, Andrew Tate and incel is not representative of men. Extremist, polarising views foster this hostility that helps nobody.

I'll put Caitlin Moran on my reading list...she's a funny read if I recall correctly.

 

[CPLforever]

I think Ava came across as hostile to a very well articulated point and that's what people will remember...that she had no space for the notion that men might have specific issues that need help. Male suicide is a horrendous statistic and to glibly write that off as because women are not as successful at suicide is disgusting. She needs to have a good think about what she said but is already becoming the victim of a pile on.

On the subject of men's issues more generally I think female perspective is essential because one of the issues we have is that we're less likely to work through our issues.

On the argument of whether feminism has gone too far, I think that where it sets women against men it probably has but I don't think that's at all representative of feminism, in the same way as meninism, Andrew Tate and incel is not representative of men. Extremist, polarising views foster this hostility that helps nobody.

I'll put Caitlin Moran on my reading list...she's a funny read if I recall correctly.

I actually think no one will remember her dismissive attitude. That is because it has been overshadowed, subsequently by the personal remarks and enabling by the two GB presenters and the furore this caused.

 

[Boris Bear]

I actually think no one will remember her dismissive attitude. That is because it has been overshadowed, subsequently by the personal remarks and enabling by the two GB presenters and the furore this caused.

Lucky for her

 

[Seaham Towny]

The idea about a Minister for Men being seen as equal is a bit of a moot point if you’re not a man. The main push back is that most things are make-by-default already therefore a Minister for Men is potentially just doubling up and is therefore not equality.

I’m currently reading Invisible Women by Caroline Criada Perez and I would hugely recommend it if you want to see stats and studies and discussion about this issue.

That aside - the issue of male suicide does need a lens on it. And while I agree we as a country need a Minister for Mental Health anyway, this issue does need more of a male focus on it.

After I’ve read Invisible Women, I’ve got “What About Men?” By Caitlin Moran on the table. She argues that the focus on raising equity for non-white and non-male minorities has lead to white men feeling very marginalised - even though they still have it better than the minorities in almost every respect (things like suicide aside) there is a perception amongst them that they don’t. And she argues that has led to people like Tate filling the gap and filling boys’ heads with bullshit.

I mean that’s a succinct and accurate summary.

Not to devalue the rest of your post but on your last point because it’s what I’ve seen most of and what I can relate to most.

Young lads nowadays see so much online about how much they don’t matter or are the enemy (I got it from both online media and my ex partner that I believed it too).

Your natural inclinations are toxic (competitiveness for one), masculinity in and of itself is toxic, you get overlooked just because some twattish examples of your same race and gender were and are complete tools, the patriarchy, dads referred to as ‘babysitters’ when watching their own kids, #killallmen etc etc…

Then blokes like Andrew Tate (complete prick btw) turn up and appeal to this. And what you get is this divisive society.

Young men need a voice and a positive one, and not need to be made to feel less than. Maybe then they’ll stop killing themselves in large numbers.