Male Suicide debate on the BBC



mackem1989 said:
I think they need more help,

I made two genuine attempts on my life when I was younger one was an overdose where I was found by a stranger down the river and the other I tried to hang myself and the rope snapped.

It’s brushed under the carpet by many and it’s sad to see.

More help is needed will they give it probably not anytime soon.
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I'm so sorry, mate. I hope you've managed to find a way to manage your depression. I've never actually attempted suicide, but I do the 'suicide ideation' thing almost every day. People who've never had full on clinical depression will never understand just how terrible it is. I stay alive because I'm lucky enough to have family who love me, including my Shih Tzus - my furry little comedians! If I was alone, I'd 100% have done away with myself.
The weird thing is that though I've been 'stable' for some time, even on my better days I still think about how great it'd be to just switch off permanently. I don't have to be on a 'downer'. I just don't get the point of life, tbh. Autism, depression, anxiety, poor social skills, sensory issues, uncomfortable around people, a bit of a loner, shunned, living below the 'poverty line' etc. It's not a great life...

Mental health care in this country is shocking, IMO. I was very lucky to have an excellent psychiatrist who kept me on even during his semi retirement. I owe him so much, he was one of the finest human beings I've ever met. Others are not so lucky. These days you're lucky if you can even get to see a psychiatrist, and waiting lists are horrific.
Depression doesn't always wait for a few weeks or months before it finishes you off.

I sincerely hope you're feeling better these days, and please excuse my dark humour - I'm glad your rope snapped!
 
Boris Bear said:
That she argues that even though they have it better off than most they have a perception that they don’t.

I’m saying that what really turns blokes off is that when they need a bit of support they’re met with this ‘but women /etc’ attitude. It’s not at all relevant to respond that one demographic is better or worse off than another.
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But she’s not saying “but women”. She’s lieterally written a book called What About Men? She’s literally doing the opposite of saying “but women”. She’s actively looking at the issue and trying to solve it.
Peegee said:
My question would be a philosophical one. What metrics determine what a better or easier life is? Surely it depends what people value in life and want to get out of life?

Society seems to have determined the ability to progress up the corporate ladder and live free from the risk of racial prejudice = social nirvana
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And perhaps that’s the issue here. We determine outcomes based on metrics that we measure and they’re not the metrics that are important to the men ending up listening to Tate. The fact that we’re talking about make suicide is proof of this. Mem certainly don’t have an advantage there.

But again, I’d recommend Invisible Women to answer this question. The works is male by default but the issue Moran highlights is that many men/boys simply dont recognise that -we need to understand why and fix the perception. And fix the bit where men aren’t winning too.
 
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Boris Bear said:
That she argues that even though they have it better off than most they have a perception that they don’t.

I’m saying that what really turns blokes off is that when they need a bit of support they’re met with this ‘but women /etc’ attitude. It’s not at all relevant to respond that one demographic is better or worse off than another.
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Have you read the book? Cos I have and I don’t recognise what you’re saying there.
 
HellsBells said:
She was approached by boys who reckoned that feminism has left them behind and their belief was they are now the minority and oppressed. She says it’s that kind of belief that lets people like Tate in.
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I can see a situation where a combination of the language used around feminism (and other isms) & some grifters praying on young/easily lead people has made them feel left behind. But maybe that deosn't matter, just the fact they feel marginalised is the problem. perception is reality etc.

as a loosly related side point - I think there is an issue around language used for movements or campaign groups these days which causes them more problems than it solves
 
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HellsBells said:
But she’s not saying “but women”. She’s lieterally written a book called What About Men? She’s literally doing the opposite of saying “but women”. She’s actively looking at the issue and trying to solve it.
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Sounds a bit like femsplaining to me. Ridiculous of course , shes only trying to help im sure 😉
Shambo said:
I can see a situation where a combination of the language used around feminism (and other isms) & some grifters praying on young/easily lead people has made them feel left behind. But maybe that deosn't matter, just the fact they feel marginalised is the problem. perception is reality etc.

as a loosly related side point - I think there is an issue around language used for movements or campaign groups these days which causes them more problems than it solves
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Cockney Mackem said:
So, the answer to male mental health issues is to hound women who don't understand them?

Interesting this psychotherapy business
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We all agree with hounding someone is wrong.

But let's not getting away from the many topic. An alarming number of men are taking their own lives. There's something wrong in the system and in society. There is a lot of ignorance out there towards men's mental health. Ava Evans showed that when she had that brain fart on TV.
 
HellsBells said:
But she’s not saying “but women”. She’s lieterally written a book called What About Men? She’s literally doing the opposite of saying “but women”. She’s actively looking at the issue and trying to solve it.

And perhaps that’s the issue here. We determine outcomes based on metrics that we measure and they’re not the metrics that are important to the men ending up listening to Tate. The fact that we’re talking about make suicide is proof of this. Mem certainly don’t have an advantage there.

But again, I’d recommend Invisible Women to answer this question. The works is male by default but the issue Moran highlights is that many men/boys simply dont recognise that -we need to understand why and fix the perception. And fix the bit where men aren’t winning too.
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Well you’ve read it so I’ll bow to your knowledge, but in that microcosm where you boiled it down men have the perception that they’re less well off when they’re really better off than most is not true to any great extent. It’s simply that any suggestion of support for white, heterosexual men is met with an appalling level of ‘but women/black people/gay people/trans people’.

So while I’m sure that there’s more to the author’s postulation than just this but in that microcosm it sounds like the problem with men is that they incorrectly perceive they’re worse off than other groups. Women (like the subject of this thread) who are hostile towards men’s issues can hardly complain when men decide to stop caring about women’s issues and follow the likes of Tate.
Muppet said:
Have you read the book? Cos I have and I don’t recognise what you’re saying there.
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I read the post
 
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Black Cat Gypsy said:
We all agree with hounding someone is wrong.

But let's not getting away from the many topic. An alarming number of men are taking their own lives. There's something wrong in the system and in society. There is a lot of ignorance out there towards men's mental health. Ava Evans showed that when she had that brain fart on TV.
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I'm not saying she's in the right, but she didn't just dismiss it, she said she thought a more general improvement in mental health services would be a better approach, and at the end of the discussion she agreed she'd like to talk further about it with people like Norcott.

My prediction is she'll still have people screaming at her online about this like Jess Phillips
 
Boris Bear said:
It’s simply that any suggestion of support for white, heterosexual men is met with an appalling level of ‘but women/black people/gay people/trans people’.

So while I’m sure that there’s more to the author’s postulation than just this but in that microcosm it sounds like the problem with men is that they incorrectly perceive they’re worse off than other groups. Women (like the subject of this thread) who are hostile towards men’s issues can hardly complain when men decide to stop caring about women’s issues and follow the likes of Tate.
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I think you’ll find you’re actually agreeing with what Moran is saying.
 
Boris Bear said:
I read the post
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Ok, well I've actually read the book, and it's a good faith attempt at explaining issues men today face, and where those issues often have the same root cause as issues women face. Some of it is a bit simplistic, but there's no "but women" about it.

Incidentally, I also went to hear her speak about the book, and again, I'll say it was very much a discussion about the issues men face. The audience was 90% women.
 
dangermows said:
The article? Aye. The book has been rinsed.
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The book.

You’ve not read the book, written by a woman looking into men’s issues while simultaneously complaining the women don’t take men’s issues seriously.

What exactly do you f***ing want?
dangermows said:
The article? Aye. The book has been absolutely rinsed :(
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Here’s another review from the same paper a day earlier.

www.theguardian.com

What About Men? review – Caitlin Moran defends the beleaguered bloke

A brave, intelligent and often very funny attempt to jump-start a modern men’s movement
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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