Our turnover of playing staff since our last promotion must be the highest.

[Mrjardine]

You said :


A quote from Sbragia about Richardson bid being turned down and the Jones interest from Spurs on several occasions now shows that statement to be untrue. You can dispute the fee's as long as you like, it doesn't make any difference.



The two players even now aren't proven to be better than him and certainly weren't at that point. Like I said it was a poor buy and panic, but whereas I look at the situation at the time, you simply look at the end result.


Again I never said that. I said that some don't make the step up, not that they don't want to.



It's a shame your memory has given up on you or maybe it's being selective, but the form of Malcom Crosby's side was allover the back pages (back when the tabloids had regional variations - maybe they still do) and programmes like Saint And Greavsie were on, of course with Football Focus etc. We had just been relegated, we'd been expected to come back up anyway. Of course things got bigger as we progressed, but we'd been making news all season sacking managers, appointing caretakers, selling Marco, Signing Beagrie, Byrne and Byrne himself was a headline maker.



I said in one particular game over a season and a half earlier the crowd were heckling him pretty badly when playing left back. There was also an incident about two to three seasons earlier where he looked to fake injury and was taken off. The former was simply how he looked playing at left back and frustrtation at the ground at the time, the latter was bloody bad form, which he'd recovered well before Reid came in - you're talking a difference of at least two seasons and countless appearances here and there, not a long spell of form.



More games top flight, more years top flight, more international caps, World Cup final regular, European and CL appearances, many of which were won when Phillips had dropped down to level two whilst he should still have been in his prime. It's the kinda bullshit you're claiming on players Keane was left with (with actually more substance even if it's untrue), even though some were complete shite by then.



Delaps career at Stoke was entirely down to his long throw and no he didn't play just about his whole career in the top flight or anything close to it, when a player of his quality would have been Championship form most of his career without it. Yes he was a better player than Cunnington, but it's not as simple as you're suggesting. Cunnington was almost frozen out completely by then, probably more in line with someone like Tommy Miller under Keane and had a similar non existent playing style.



Iand at least six months after selling the striker showed we were trying to strengthen other areas first.



They did, but whilst Lawrence went onto Stoke and completely recovered his form (maybe he'd have done that here but the video ruined it for him), Elliott scored a few goals for us that season, but never looked the player he had and a promising career filtered down the leagues. He scored 15 goals in the league first season here, but has never scored more than 8 league goals in a season since and has spent the majority of his career in the SPL.

McCarthy's initial squad wasn't 'probably' stronger than Keane's it was miles stronger. Realistically McCarthy didn't need money to spend as the squad he had was that big. One or two signings and many younger lads looking to prove theirselves meant any relegation hangover was quickly forgotten. Even his side struggled first few games though until Breen was in and up to speed. And why do you keep ranting on about players who had previously got out of the division? It barely matters a jot when they've just been promoted and had their arses handed to them week in week out, some never recover.

Paul Stewart was shite, he was playing up front on his own for the majority of the time, who was he going to hold the ball up for - Ball and Bracewell. Out of our options at the time he was probably the worst one for the role, he should have been partnered more often by one of the younger lads, then it may have made sense, because Quinn and Stewart wouldn't have done owt either. Noticably Stewart played for Stoke the next season and is seen as one of their worst players ever and he was only 30/31. The season after he was at Workinton, I think that says it all.

Courted to the point of receiving an offer we couldn't turn down e.g Bent is what I was getting at in that statement. I have said this on countless occasions since as well in order to clear that up.
Proof of the pudding is in the eating and regardless of how you take the situation at the time it has subsequently proven to be the wrong move and I'm not saying this with hindsight as I wasn't happy with it at the time.
What world do you live in perry? Yes newspapers have their regional variations but to suggest we were all over the back pages due to a good run of form in the second tier is utterly ridiculous! I accept we started to make headlines as the cup run progressed but that isn't the argument here. Of course I remember Saint & Greavsie and football focus but again they were too top heavy with the big boys to worry about us. Wel have no doubt got a mention when sacked Smith or Sold Marco but again that isn't the argument. This is the best bit though. We made headlines by signing an Everton reserve on loan and a lad who was playing for Brighton? You've gotta be taking the piss now surely? My version of events regarding the local rags banging the drum and the usual rallying calls from the players on the back pages of the Echo is much closer to the mark! Neither cut any ice with me as it was never on as it proved.
You said he was being heckled a season and half before Reid arrived and rarely featured under Buxton who was in charge for much of that period. I'm curious as to how he went from that to maturing nicely just in time for Reid arriving?
Probably played about 50 more games top flight than KP. Never played in the champions league and I dare say if Killa decided to throw his hat in the ring with England he'd have a nice empty shelf where his Irish caps now sit. A totally ridiculous comparison.
Delaps racked up hundreds of top flight games man! He played for years at Derby and Southampton before he arrived here and then went on to play a boatload for Stoke after. I'm not saying he was a superstar but you don't play that many games at the top level just because you've got a long throw! Dave challinor and Andy Legg could hurl it just a long as Delap and don't think they've got a top flight appearance between them! Cunnington was frozen out for a reason (hopeless) and to then say Miller was better than Delap is once again utter rubbish. You're obviously an intelligent bloke (more so than me) but whenever your rhetoric starts drifting away from internet facts and stats you seem to have absolutely no grasp of football. No disrespect meant there by the way.
Your observation regarding Angell totally proves my point regarding waffling on about the cost a player. Just because Reid walked into a reserve strike who cost a few bob it doesn't give any indication whatsoever as to the strength of his squad. Perhaps due to injury Angells best (which was perhaps better than what Browns ever amounted to) was way behind him whilst as Brown has proven to have still had some miles in the tank.
His career upfront only started when Reid came in. The odd (and I mean odd) time he played upfront certainly didn't give any indication to suggest he'd be the player to fire us up the following season and Reid has to take enormous credit for that .
Pretty sure Scott was signed prior to goodman leaving mind as it was around Xmas 94 when the Don left and I'm certain Scott was here before that. Agnew came in for about 250k which left the majority of budget spent on the striking position which you claim we could do without. December to March doesn't equate to six months either.
It was Keanes decision to let Lawrence go but the fact remains he was still a decent enough player and one who'd have walked into the side Reid inherited.
The side McCarthy inherited had just had as you put it ' their arses handed to them' the previous season as well and he done a good job much like Keane did in having them challenging at the top end.
I don't think Reids idea was to pair Quinn and Stewart though it would've been Quinn with either Russell or Bridges but due to Quinns injury he was the next best option. To even get that squad which was pretty awful in grand scheme of things to within a whisker of safety was a fantastic effort.

 

[Kevin Arnott's right boot]

Scotty arrived around three weeks after Goodman left.

 

[Mrjardine]

Scotty arrived around three weeks after Goodman left.

You're right. I've kept off googling throughout this apart from Darren Wards welsh caps as a debate like this best discussed from memories of the time rather than allowing revision to cloud that judgement.
We paid 450k plus Gary owers so as I said we spent the bulk of our Don Goodman money on Brett Angell.

 

[Perryqhill]

Courted to the point of receiving an offer we couldn't turn down e.g Bent is what I was getting at in that statement. I have said this on countless occasions since as well in order to clear that up.

Whichever way you look at it Jones was exactly that.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating and regardless of how you take the situation at the time it has subsequently proven to be the wrong move and I'm not saying this with hindsight as I wasn't happy with it at the time.

I wasn't either you see, but even so I could see why we panicked.

What world do you live in perry? Yes newspapers have their regional variations but to suggest we were all over the back pages due to a good run of form in the second tier is utterly ridiculous! I accept we started to make headlines as the cup run progressed but that isn't the argument here. Of course I remember Saint & Greavsie and football focus but again they were too top heavy with the big boys to worry about us. Wel have no doubt got a mention when sacked Smith or Sold Marco but again that isn't the argument. This is the best bit though. We made headlines by signing an Everton reserve on loan and a lad who was playing for Brighton? You've gotta be taking the piss now surely?

It's not, we were allover the papers and media that season at several points. Not in a Man Utd way obviously, but more than we usually would. Suggesting we wouldn't be talked about is ridiculous to suit your own argument.

You said he was being heckled a season and half before Reid arrived and rarely featured under Buxton who was in charge for much of that period. I'm curious as to how he went from that to maturing nicely just in time for Reid arriving?

I said he got heckled under Butcher when playing left back in one game, not that it was a regular feature. I've said it countless times but you keep on ignoring it....

Probably played about 50 more games top flight than KP. Never played in the champions league and I dare say if Killa decided to throw his hat in the ring with England he'd have a nice empty shelf where his Irish caps now sit. A totally ridiculous comparison.

We're not talking about who's the better player though are we, we're talking about general assumptions you make because of where a player spends his career.

Therefore Phillips top scored in the Premiership one season and arguably had about four and a half good Premiership seasons (though many on here would say two). Phillips also played 8 times for England.

Now using your previous comments about where players play their football as being a baring of their quality, Kilbane playing European football, Champions League football, playing in sides who finished higher than any side Phillips played in, playing in a World Cup and playing over 100 games for Ireland surely trumps that?

Now, do you see how a players career pans out isn't necessarily a gauge on how good he was?

Delaps racked up hundreds of top flight games man! He played for years at Derby and Southampton before he arrived here and then went on to play a boatload for Stoke after. I'm not saying he was a superstar but you don't play that many games at the top level just because you've got a long throw! Dave challinor and Andy Legg could hurl it just a long as Delap and don't think they've got a top flight appearance between them! Cunnington was frozen out for a reason (hopeless) and to then say Miller was better than Delap is once again utter rubbish. You're obviously an intelligent bloke (more so than me) but whenever your rhetoric starts drifting away from internet facts and stats you seem to have absolutely no grasp of football. No disrespect meant there by the way.

In hindsight he probably has. I never actually said Miller was better than Delap (wtf?). In fact I said nothing of the sort, though Delap's latter career was soley based on his long throw. I said Miller was probably a better comparison to Cunnington, a A) Delap was a regular for us when Keane arrived and B) Miller was like Cunnington in that he was more or less froxen out completely, as Cunnington was.

Your observation regarding Angell totally proves my point regarding waffling on about the cost a player. Just because Reid walked into a reserve strike who cost a few bob it doesn't give any indication whatsoever as to the strength of his squad.

I never said it did. I used the price tag as there's not a lot else to go on from back then. So by the same token how does you keep going on about a couple of reasonable players who won the Championship a season and a bit earlier and a few more fringe players make a difference to Keane's squad?

Perhaps due to injury Angells best (which was perhaps better than what Browns ever amounted to) was way behind him whilst as Brown has proven to have still had some miles in the tank.

Even after Angell's injury his stats are pretty similar to Brown's and when at lower levels than the Championship Angell was easily outscoring him, whereas Brown was no more prolific.

His career upfront only started when Reid came in. The odd (and I mean odd) time he played upfront certainly didn't give any indication to suggest he'd be the player to fire us up the following season and Reid has to take enormous credit for that

It didn't you're very wrong on this one. He was pretty regular up front when Goodman left, after the few games Williams had. Initially Buxton used him wide as we had Gray and Goodman and moved Smith to the right. but he also played games up front before Goodman left as Don was having a bit of an off season and picking up injuries. Crosby had played him centrally too and also wide. He was always really a centre forward filling in, even through youth football and our side and Denis Smith played him there when we sold Marco for a game.

.

Pretty sure Scott was signed prior to goodman leaving mind as it was around Xmas 94 when the Don left and I'm certain Scott was here before that. Agnew came in for about 250k which left the majority of budget spent on the striking position which you claim we could do without. December to March doesn't equate to six months either.

Memory failing you again. We'd been trying to nick Scotty on the cheap for ages and had bids of up to and around £300k turned down during the summer. we eventually paid something like 500k and Gary Owers. When Goodman hit indifferent form and we looked to cash in, we moved straight in for Scotty. I think we also went in for Agnew much earlier too, but he was reluctant to leave Leicester at that point as he'd only been out of their side for a short while.

The striking position wasn't filled for ages, it clearly showed where Buxton thought our weakness was and we did at the time - we hadn't had a proper left back for a few years (after Rogan decided he was a centre half) and Buxton was reluctant to use Gray there as Butcher had been.

It was Keanes decision to let Lawrence go but the fact remains he was still a decent enough player and one who'd have walked into the side Reid inherited.

Would he? Martin Smith should have, but didn't. There's no reason Reid wouldn't have thought Lawrence wasn't similarly a big time charlie (which he was).

The side McCarthy inherited had just had as you put it ' their arses handed to them' the previous season as well and he done a good job much like Keane did in having them challenging at the top end.

Different scenario though. Reid and Wilko left about 56 senior players on the books. We sold the most saleable and were left with some very decent players and some young lads ready to come through. In effect we'd already had a shakeup. Keane came into what was the most depressing set of players we'd had for well over ten years, thankfully he had money to spend.

I don't think Reids idea was to pair Quinn and Stewart though it would've been Quinn with either Russell or Bridges but due to Quinns injury he was the next best option. To even get that squad which was pretty awful in grand scheme of things to within a whisker of safety was a fantastic effort.

I do and IIRC he played them together on occasions before Quinn's injury. In fact he started the top flight season with David Kelly wide and Stewart upfront on his own, bringing Quinn on to partner him, with a fit Russell not on the bench and in the next game he started them together, with Russell and Bridges making late apperances from the bench.

In fact I remember Reid getting the sack at City when they brought in the bloke above him who's name escapes me and Reid was moaning as they pulled the plug on his move for Stewart from Spurs, whom he rated extremely highly.

We paid 450k plus Gary owers so as I said we spent the bulk of our Don Goodman money on Brett Angell.

450k Scott + 250k for Agnew = 700k. Figures of Goodman's sale seemed to range from £1.1m to £1.3m.

That's not the bulk of the Goodman money even if you take the higher figure.

 

[Mrjardine]

Whichever way you look at it Jones was exactly that.


I wasn't either you see, but even so I could see why we panicked.



It's not, we were allover the papers and media that season at several points. Not in a Man Utd way obviously, but more than we usually would. Suggesting we wouldn't be talked about is ridiculous to suit your own argument.



I said he got heckled under Butcher when playing left back in one game, not that it was a regular feature. I've said it countless times but you keep on ignoring it....


We're not talking about who's the better player though are we, we're talking about general assumptions you make because of where a player spends his career.

Therefore Phillips top scored in the Premiership one season and arguably had about four and a half good Premiership seasons (though many on here would say two). Phillips also played 8 times for England.

Now using your previous comments about where players play their football as being a baring of their quality, Kilbane playing European football, Champions League football, playing in sides who finished higher than any side Phillips played in, playing in a World Cup and playing over 100 games for Ireland surely trumps that?

Now, do you see how a players career pans out isn't necessarily a gauge on how good he was?



In hindsight he probably has. I never actually said Miller was better than Delap (wtf?). In fact I said nothing of the sort, though Delap's latter career was soley based on his long throw. I said Miller was probably a better comparison to Cunnington, a A) Delap was a regular for us when Keane arrived and B) Miller was like Cunnington in that he was more or less froxen out completely, as Cunnington was.



I never said it did. I used the price tag as there's not a lot else to go on from back then. So by the same token how does you keep going on about a couple of reasonable players who won the Championship a season and a bit earlier and a few more fringe players make a difference to Keane's squad?



Even after Angell's injury his stats are pretty similar to Brown's and when at lower levels than the Championship Angell was easily outscoring him, whereas Brown was no more prolific.



It didn't you're very wrong on this one. He was pretty regular up front when Goodman left, after the few games Williams had. Initially Buxton used him wide as we had Gray and Goodman and moved Smith to the right. but he also played games up front before Goodman left as Don was having a bit of an off season and picking up injuries. Crosby had played him centrally too and also wide. He was always really a centre forward filling in, even through youth football and our side and Denis Smith played him there when we sold Marco for a game.

.


Memory failing you again. We'd been trying to nick Scotty on the cheap for ages and had bids of up to and around £300k turned down during the summer. we eventually paid something like 500k and Gary Owers. When Goodman hit indifferent form and we looked to cash in, we moved straight in for Scotty. I think we also went in for Agnew much earlier too, but he was reluctant to leave Leicester at that point as he'd only been out of their side for a short while.

The striking position wasn't filled for ages, it clearly showed where Buxton thought our weakness was and we did at the time - we hadn't had a proper left back for a few years (after Rogan decided he was a centre half) and Buxton was reluctant to use Gray there as Butcher had been.



Would he? Martin Smith should have, but didn't. There's no reason Reid wouldn't have thought Lawrence wasn't similarly a big time charlie (which he was).



Different scenario though. Reid and Wilko left about 56 senior players on the books. We sold the most saleable and were left with some very decent players and some young lads ready to come through. In effect we'd already had a shakeup. Keane came into what was the most depressing set of players we'd had for well over ten years, thankfully he had money to spend.



I do and IIRC he played them together on occasions before Quinn's injury. In fact he started the top flight season with David Kelly wide and Stewart upfront on his own, bringing Quinn on to partner him, with a fit Russell not on the bench and in the next game he started them together, with Russell and Bridges making late apperances from the bench.

In fact I remember Reid getting the sack at City when they brought in the bloke above him who's name escapes me and Reid was moaning as they pulled the plug on his move for Stewart from Spurs, whom he rated extremely highly.



450k Scott + 250k for Agnew = 700k. Figures of Goodman's sale seemed to range from £1.1m to £1.3m.

That's not the bulk of the Goodman money even if you take the higher figure.

Jones wasn't the subject of as tempting an offer as Bent was. I have said this many time in order to clear it up.
Yes we were all over the media due to a wonderful cup run not because we had a good run of results and climbed to the dizzy heights of 11th in the second tier. Even in this day and age of massive media coverage it may have just about made the 'and finally's'. To then say the signings of Beagrie and Byrne were big news in the nationals to try and strengthen your argument has taken your tailoring of arguments to a whole new level!
You have but you also said he rarely featured under Buxton so how on earth can he have matured in that time as he had hardly played! You give Keane credit for like of Danny Collins and rightly so yet you attempt to play down the role Reid had in bringing Ord on.
Kilbane never played in the champions league Perry. He played at the same sort of level as Phillips for similar lengths of time and individually Phillips achieved more and will be remembered more across the whole of football in years to come than Kilbane will be. If a player doesn't play at the top level (premier league, la liga etc) then invariably it's because he wasn't good enough. Steve Bull probably a exception to that rule and that about it.
Miller and cunnington were frozen out for reasons (hopeless). To say Delap player over 100 games for Stoke because of a long throw really shows your naivety towards the game. Now I'm not saying it wasnt a massive weapon for them but you really think in the premier league you can carry a passenger purely on the basis of a long throw??? Goodness me Perry!
It mattes as they were played who at the same club had shown they could cut it if handled properly. Angell never showed anything at all either during or after his spell here. Keane could call on pretty much a whole midfield who went on to make hundreds of top flight appearances after they left which shows they were still more than capable to do a job here as oppose to cunnington and ferguson who Reid had!
It's you who's wrong perry. Russell was playing as a winger with the odd exception prior to Reid taking over. I don't doubt that he had played all his youth career there but it was Reid who gave him his first real opportunity to establish himself there at first team level.
When i go from memory on things that happened twenty year ago I will get the odd thing wrong (only three weeks out apparently so not too bad) I could always google everything (like some) but being revisionist in a discussion such as this can start painting a different picture from what was the reality.
Around three month later the Striking position was filled. Not exactly ages and certainly not six months!
Martin smith showed nothing in his subsequent career to suggest that Reid got it wrong with him. Lawrence went into win promotion AGAIN then play another 3 season of top flight football. I don't know the lad personally so I'm not sure on the big time Charlie thing. He was a canny looking lad though who made a video with a tidy bird. Got no problem with that personally and that seems to be the common reason people give for there opinion on him.
We'd had a shakeup by selling pretty much all of our best players. The prospective first XI Mccarthy walked into was probably a little stronger than Keanes and he had a bigger squad but unlike Keane he had his hands tied in the market so both done very good jobs for different reasons.
They may have started one or two (can't honestly remember) but Quinny only played about ten games if that and a few of them were from the bench and Stewart probably played about 30ish so don't imagine they started too many as a pair.
What I meant regarding bulk (should've made it clearer) was that the money paid for a striker which you claimed wasn't a necessity due to Russell being lined up to play up top (wrong) was a greater individual fee than any other signings. Infact as you've pointed out it was just about as much as the two out together.

 

[Perryqhill]

Jones wasn't the subject of as tempting an offer as Bent was. I have said this many time in order to clear it up.

Says you, problem is you saying you don't believe it doesn't clear it up at all.

Different circumstances tbf, Jones was massively important to us at the time and kept us up that season and in the second half of it scored about 7 goals, which claimed us (off the top of my head about 8 points), we knew Bent was looking to move as he'd wanted to go to Fenerbache during the summer and had Gyan and Welbeck short term, with Campbell on the way back who Bruce rated. We also wanted to strengthen other areas. Like I've said constantly though, you never ever look at what was happening at the time.

As for the Bent deal, how do you know it was as more tempting offer for us? We paid £10.5m, we owed in total £16.5m. We were paid an amount of around £18.5m which could amount to £24m. For all you know we might have just made a bit over our initial out lay. With Jones even if they were offering £5m less than what Quinn says it would have represented us a big profit, but seeing as we were struggling to add quality at the time a massive gap.

The key difference between the deals was that one was happy to stop, the other wanted more money and had been told by the England manager a move would benefit his England chances.

Yes we were all over the media due to a wonderful cup run not because we had a good run of results and climbed to the dizzy heights of 11th in the second tier. Even in this day and age of massive media coverage it may have just about made the 'and finally's'. To then say the signings of Beagrie and Byrne were big news in the nationals to try and strengthen your argument has taken your tailoring of arguments to a whole new level!

Not true and not true. There doesn't have to be big stories or mass coverage to get a few headlines here and there or a few people talking about you. Just a bit of interest.

And no I never said signing Byrne and Beagrie were big news to the nationals, stop making things up. I said several things happened over the course of that season which created headlines or stories. The Beagrie deal itself and the constant on off nature of it was the subject of many a story in the back pages too. You're talking as if we never got any stories at all back then.

You have but you also said he rarely featured under Buxton so how on earth can he have matured in that time as he had hardly played! You give Keane credit for like of Danny Collins and rightly so yet you attempt to play down the role Reid had in bringing Ord on.

I said he seemed to mature after the earlier poor spell (which happened to be a good season and a half previous). I said so as when he came back into the side playing semi regularly he looked a more confident assured player, maybe he'd matured as he was a bit older and wiser? Maybe he'd simply regained confidence eh? And no I never played down any role Reid played as he moved up several levels under Reid. I really wish you would stop lying about what I've supposedly said and stringing our points that don't even matter.

Kilbane never played in the champions league Perry.

He played in CL qualifiers then, I forgot Everton didn't qualify.

He played at the same sort of level as Phillips for similar lengths of time and individually Phillips achieved more and will be remembered more across the whole of football in years to come than Kilbane will be. If a player doesn't play at the top level (premier league, la liga etc) then invariably it's because he wasn't good enough. Steve Bull probably a exception to that rule and that about it.

He played more at a higher level than Phillips did, that is fact. Remembered across the whole of football by whom? No one will remember Phillips in about ten years barring the sides he played for, same with Kilbane, what nonsense. Or do you really think most fans will remember some bloke who scored 30 once in a top flight season over one who had 110 caps for an international side?

Kilbane 11 Premiership seasons (one wasn't as a regular)
Phillips 9.5 ( 3 of which weren't as a regular)

Phillips spent 10.5 seasons out of the top flight, more than he was in it. Skewed a bit by the age he played on till, however 5 of the seasons was at the start of his career.

How did Phillips achieve more, by playing till he was 40? By winning 8 international caps instead of 110, by scoring 30 goals once in the top flight? When did Phillips play in a side who finished 4th or was a regular for his side at the World Cup?

Sorry but again this proves that the quality of a player isn't always proven by their career.

Miller and cunnington were frozen out for reasons (hopeless). To say Delap player over 100 games for Stoke because of a long throw really shows your naivety towards the game. Now I'm not saying it wasnt a massive weapon for them but you really think in the premier league you can carry a passenger purely on the basis of a long throw??? Goodness me Perry!

Mostly they were carrying him in the top flight, yes. I take it you didn't see much of them? They even tried to bring in similar players who were hopeles and got games like Ryan Shotton.

Keane could call on pretty much a whole midfield who went on to make hundreds of top flight appearances after they left which shows they were still more than capable to do a job here as oppose to cunnington and ferguson who Reid had!

Reid inherited a player who went onto score about 20 goals in his first top flight season and one who played for England, with several more who fitted into top flight football quite easily and played many games at that level. You saying Keane inherited some who played more top flight football doesn't tell the story of what state the place was in when he landed does it, just as it doesn't with Reid?

It's you who's wrong perry. Russell was playing as a winger with the odd exception prior to Reid taking over. I don't doubt that he had played all his youth career there but it was Reid who gave him his first real opportunity to establish himself there at first team level.

Sorry but you're talking out of your arse. Even in the season Reid arrived Russ had played quite a few games upfront.

When i go from memory on things that happened twenty year ago I will get the odd thing wrong (only three weeks out apparently so not too bad) I could always google everything (like some) but being revisionist in a discussion such as this can start painting a different picture from what was the reality.

Such a hypocrite, there's no way you could know some of the stuff like about Darren Ward (which you've admitted to), about where Kilbane played, possibly Everton's CL and part of what you said about Ward was copied almost word for word from his wiki, without Googling. I make no bones about using the facts available to back up my memory (and my memory is clearly far better than yours here). It stops the time lapsed or feelings at the time cloud things too much.

I see what you're doing though, you're trying to make a shit point alluding to me having to resort to some stats rather than memory and my argument being weaker as a result.

Around three month later the Striking position was filled. Not exactly ages and certainly not six months!

A long time if you haven't got two strikers though isn't it? Which is what you're suggesting was the case saying Russell wasn't used there.

They may have started one or two (can't honestly remember) but Quinny only played about ten games if that and a few of them were from the bench and Stewart probably played about 30ish so don't imagine they started too many as a pair.

It was the start of the season when they were being played together though, that gives an indication (as does Stewart being picked when fit) that it would have happened often.

What I meant regarding bulk (should've made it clearer) was that the money paid for a striker which you claimed wasn't a necessity due to Russell being lined up to play up top (wrong) was a greater individual fee than any other signings. Infact as you've pointed out it was just about as much as the two out together.

Firstly Goodman was sold more than three months before Angell was signed and had already been left out for Russell in a couple of games before he was sold. Why then not move for strikers if we couldn't do without one?? Answer that.

We instantly bought Scott and then got Agnew, yet we only brought in Williams on loan who was available for 75k. We only brought in Angell on deadline day approaching a relegation battle. The fee for Angell was 600k, not sure how that's all much as both the others together when they were signed for a combined £700k + Owers.

 

[the streaker]

Says you, problem is you saying you don't believe it doesn't clear it up at all.

Different circumstances tbf, Jones was massively important to us at the time and kept us up that season and in the second half of it scored about 7 goals, which claimed us (off the top of my head about 8 points), we knew Bent was looking to move as he'd wanted to go to Fenerbache during the summer and had Gyan and Welbeck short term, with Campbell on the way back who Bruce rated. We also wanted to strengthen other areas. Like I've said constantly though, you never ever look at what was happening at the time.

As for the Bent deal, how do you know it was as more tempting offer for us? We paid £10.5m, we owed in total £16.5m. We were paid an amount of around £18.5m which could amount to £24m. For all you know we might have just made a bit over our initial out lay. With Jones even if they were offering £5m less than what Quinn says it would have represented us a big profit, but seeing as we were struggling to add quality at the time a massive gap.

The key difference between the deals was that one was happy to stop, the other wanted more money and had been told by the England manager a move would benefit his England chances.


Not true and not true. There doesn't have to be big stories or mass coverage to get a few headlines here and there or a few people talking about you. Just a bit of interest.

And no I never said signing Byrne and Beagrie were big news to the nationals, stop making things up. I said several things happened over the course of that season which created headlines or stories. The Beagrie deal itself and the constant on off nature of it was the subject of many a story in the back pages too. You're talking as if we never got any stories at all back then.



I said he seemed to mature after the earlier poor spell (which happened to be a good season and a half previous). I said so as when he came back into the side playing semi regularly he looked a more confident assured player, maybe he'd matured as he was a bit older and wiser? Maybe he'd simply regained confidence eh? And no I never played down any role Reid played as he moved up several levels under Reid. I really wish you would stop lying about what I've supposedly said and stringing our points that don't even matter.


He played in CL qualifiers then, I forgot Everton didn't qualify.



He played more at a higher level than Phillips did, that is fact. Remembered across the whole of football by whom? No one will remember Phillips in about ten years barring the sides he played for, same with Kilbane, what nonsense. Or do you really think most fans will remember some bloke who scored 30 once in a top flight season over one who had 110 caps for an international side?

Kilbane 11 Premiership seasons (one wasn't as a regular)
Phillips 9.5 ( 3 of which weren't as a regular)

Phillips spent 10.5 seasons out of the top flight, more than he was in it. Skewed a bit by the age he played on till, however 5 of the seasons was at the start of his career.

How did Phillips achieve more, by playing till he was 40? By winning 8 international caps instead of 110, by scoring 30 goals once in the top flight? When did Phillips play in a side who finished 4th or was a regular for his side at the World Cup?

Sorry but again this proves that the quality of a player isn't always proven by their career.



Mostly they were carrying him in the top flight, yes. I take it you didn't see much of them? They even tried to bring in similar players who were hopeles and got games like Ryan Shotton.



Reid inherited a player who went onto score about 20 goals in his first top flight season and one who played for England, with several more who fitted into top flight football quite easily and played many games at that level. You saying Keane inherited some who played more top flight football doesn't tell the story of what state the place was in when he landed does it, just as it doesn't with Reid?



Sorry but you're talking out of your arse. Even in the season Reid arrived Russ had played quite a few games upfront.



Such a hypocrite, there's no way you could know some of the stuff like about Darren Ward (which you've admitted to), about where Kilbane played, possibly Everton's CL and part of what you said about Ward was copied almost word for word from his wiki, without Googling. I make no bones about using the facts available to back up my memory (and my memory is clearly far better than yours here). It stops the time lapsed or feelings at the time cloud things too much.

I see what you're doing though, you're trying to make a shit point alluding to me having to resort to some stats rather than memory and my argument being weaker as a result.



A long time if you haven't got two strikers though isn't it? Which is what you're suggesting was the case saying Russell wasn't used there.



It was the start of the season when they were being played together though, that gives an indication (as does Stewart being picked when fit) that it would have happened often.



Firstly Goodman was sold more than three months before Angell was signed and had already been left out for Russell in a couple of games before he was sold. Why then not move for strikers if we couldn't do without one?? Answer that.

We instantly bought Scott and then got Agnew, yet we only brought in Williams on loan who was available for 75k. We only brought in Angell on deadline day approaching a relegation battle. The fee for Angell was 600k, not sure how that's all much as both the others together when they were signed for a combined £700k + Owers.

All this thread needs now is norris mcwhirter......

 

[Perryqhill]

All this thread needs now is norris mcwhirter......

It could certainly do with it....

Tbf I'm going to leave it and not post anymore in here as he's a lost cause. We've both stretched things a bit far at times and made mistakes, but whereas I've accepted I was wrong on the games delap played or Everton in the CL, he just either ignores it or repeats what he originally said. He asks for quotes , I provide them and then He doubts them. He states things, I provide facts and stats to prove them wrong and I'm a 'revisionist' because I've actually looked for evidence to back up my memory. He then uses google to the point he virtually copies and pastes a section from someone's wiki page and admits he checked up on Darren wards page, but repeats the 'revisionist' comments wherever possible to lessen what I've said. He's even took his own negative skewed memory and made his own mind up over the words of Niall Quinn, whilst all along calling himself 'balanced' as casting doubt over others ability to be so.

I might be bad at times, but he's a special case.

 

[Scary nuns]

It could certainly do with it....

Tbf I'm going to leave it and not post anymore in here as he's a lost cause. We've both stretched things a bit far at times and made mistakes, but whereas I've accepted I was wrong on the games delap played or Everton in the CL, he just either ignores it or repeats what he originally said. He asks for quotes , I provide them and then He doubts them. He states things, I provide facts and stats to prove them wrong and I'm a 'revisionist' because I've actually looked for evidence to back up my memory. He then uses google to the point he virtually copies and pastes a section from someone's wiki page and admits he checked up on Darren wards page, but repeats the 'revisionist' comments wherever possible to lessen what I've said. He's even took his own negative skewed memory and made his own mind up over the words of Niall Quinn, whilst all along calling himself 'balanced' as casting doubt over others ability to be so.

I might be bad at times, but he's a special case.

Don't give in now, try a bit of Socratic questioning and let him hang himself.

 

[Mrjardine]

Says you, problem is you saying you don't believe it doesn't clear it up at all.

Different circumstances tbf, Jones was massively important to us at the time and kept us up that season and in the second half of it scored about 7 goals, which claimed us (off the top of my head about 8 points), we knew Bent was looking to move as he'd wanted to go to Fenerbache during the summer and had Gyan and Welbeck short term, with Campbell on the way back who Bruce rated. We also wanted to strengthen other areas. Like I've said constantly though, you never ever look at what was happening at the time.

As for the Bent deal, how do you know it was as more tempting offer for us? We paid £10.5m, we owed in total £16.5m. We were paid an amount of around £18.5m which could amount to £24m. For all you know we might have just made a bit over our initial out lay. With Jones even if they were offering £5m less than what Quinn says it would have represented us a big profit, but seeing as we were struggling to add quality at the time a massive gap.

The key difference between the deals was that one was happy to stop, the other wanted more money and had been told by the England manager a move would benefit his England chances.


Not true and not true. There doesn't have to be big stories or mass coverage to get a few headlines here and there or a few people talking about you. Just a bit of interest.

And no I never said signing Byrne and Beagrie were big news to the nationals, stop making things up. I said several things happened over the course of that season which created headlines or stories. The Beagrie deal itself and the constant on off nature of it was the subject of many a story in the back pages too. You're talking as if we never got any stories at all back then.



I said he seemed to mature after the earlier poor spell (which happened to be a good season and a half previous). I said so as when he came back into the side playing semi regularly he looked a more confident assured player, maybe he'd matured as he was a bit older and wiser? Maybe he'd simply regained confidence eh? And no I never played down any role Reid played as he moved up several levels under Reid. I really wish you would stop lying about what I've supposedly said and stringing our points that don't even matter.


He played in CL qualifiers then, I forgot Everton didn't qualify.



He played more at a higher level than Phillips did, that is fact. Remembered across the whole of football by whom? No one will remember Phillips in about ten years barring the sides he played for, same with Kilbane, what nonsense. Or do you really think most fans will remember some bloke who scored 30 once in a top flight season over one who had 110 caps for an international side?

Kilbane 11 Premiership seasons (one wasn't as a regular)
Phillips 9.5 ( 3 of which weren't as a regular)

Phillips spent 10.5 seasons out of the top flight, more than he was in it. Skewed a bit by the age he played on till, however 5 of the seasons was at the start of his career.

How did Phillips achieve more, by playing till he was 40? By winning 8 international caps instead of 110, by scoring 30 goals once in the top flight? When did Phillips play in a side who finished 4th or was a regular for his side at the World Cup?

Sorry but again this proves that the quality of a player isn't always proven by their career.



Mostly they were carrying him in the top flight, yes. I take it you didn't see much of them? They even tried to bring in similar players who were hopeles and got games like Ryan Shotton.



Reid inherited a player who went onto score about 20 goals in his first top flight season and one who played for England, with several more who fitted into top flight football quite easily and played many games at that level. You saying Keane inherited some who played more top flight football doesn't tell the story of what state the place was in when he landed does it, just as it doesn't with Reid?



Sorry but you're talking out of your arse. Even in the season Reid arrived Russ had played quite a few games upfront.



Such a hypocrite, there's no way you could know some of the stuff like about Darren Ward (which you've admitted to), about where Kilbane played, possibly Everton's CL and part of what you said about Ward was copied almost word for word from his wiki, without Googling. I make no bones about using the facts available to back up my memory (and my memory is clearly far better than yours here). It stops the time lapsed or feelings at the time cloud things too much.

I see what you're doing though, you're trying to make a shit point alluding to me having to resort to some stats rather than memory and my argument being weaker as a result.



A long time if you haven't got two strikers though isn't it? Which is what you're suggesting was the case saying Russell wasn't used there.



It was the start of the season when they were being played together though, that gives an indication (as does Stewart being picked when fit) that it would have happened often.



Firstly Goodman was sold more than three months before Angell was signed and had already been left out for Russell in a couple of games before he was sold. Why then not move for strikers if we couldn't do without one?? Answer that.

We instantly bought Scott and then got Agnew, yet we only brought in Williams on loan who was available for 75k. We only brought in Angell on deadline day approaching a relegation battle. The fee for Angell was 600k, not sure how that's all much as both the others together when they were signed for a combined £700k + Owers.

And says you regarding it being a big offer. No quotes from anybody to say exactly what is was just paper talk. You have your take on it as I have mine and we've both made then pretty clear.
We had Gyan short term? We'd just paid a club record fee man. As you have said it wasn't bruceys fault he chased life changing money. We were offered a deal worth 24m and given how Bent had played for us it wasn't unreasonable to think he'd earn us every at Villa.
If we'd been offered 15m for Jones I'm pretty sure we could have replaced him and still had change which leads me to believe we were offered nothing like that.
So it's a few headlines now? We were all over the back pages of the nationals according to you due to a run of results that took us to eleventh in the old second division. We only started getting mentioned when the cup run gathered pace and as soon as that was over we were back to zero national coverage again much like everybody outside the top flight in those days. So we made headlines in the nationals over the loaning of an Everton reserve and the on off nature of it?? Quite the saga ey .
By stating he'd somehow matured conveniently for Reid stepping into the hotseat and then claiming Keane should be patted on the back for Danny Collins proves the point you were trying to make. At no point have you gave Reid any credit until that last post.
He played at a World Cup but apart from that they played similar games at similar levels id imagine. Friendlies and games against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg doesn't exactly illustrate how much of a better career he had.
Killa started at Preston and then West brom (no googling there as I remember him tearing Darren holloway arse out for the baggies at SOL one game) so he has his share if lower league stuff in Gus early days as well. My point regarding remembering is that a golden boot winner will be remembered more by neutrals than a standard Premier league player which Killa was. I'm sure you remember Clive Allen but I bet you'd struggle to remember who was midfield for a Chelsea or West ham in that era.
Phillips scored nearly a 100 premier league goals man! I'm not putting him up there with shearer or Henry but he had a good top flight career. As for this 110 caps nonsense there are blokes playing for Iran and teams like that with daft amount of caps and they've played at world cups as well! I told you last post how stupid that analogy was as on that basis Killa and the prince of Persia have had better careers than Weah and Best!
I've said regarding Delap he was a steady premier league player no more but to suggest a manager would carry a player at that level of the game for sake of a long throw is utter rubbish. As I also said which you claimed was nonsense the lad played countless games at the top level so not as if In Stoke he found some kind of spiritual home!
We are talking about what they walked into. Are you seriously now trying to make out Reid had an easier job because he had a lad who was probably 15 or 16 when he first walked into roker park? By that reasoning Keane walked into a job with a lad who's just picked up a prem league runners up medal! What are you waffling on about man!
He'd just about played exclusively as a winger Perry prior to Reid. You're completely lost without that internet to refer to Bonny lad!
What did I copy from wiki on ward? All I said was I used it to check his caps. I knew he'd been at forest before us but wasn't sure before that. As for Killa in champs league I knew Everton had never played in it. Don't need google for that. As I've said you are a complete revisionist and when you can't back up your opinions with the comfort of facts and stats and have to use your own judgement you're lost.
We had Gray and Howey as well as the loan signing of Paul Williams.
Well it was a lot closer to three than six (memory failing you again) and as I've said we had Howey and then the loan of Paul Williams which is three strikers before obviously realising it wouldn't do and just over three months later spent big (for the time) on Angell.
When did I say it was as much? I said almost as much 700k v 650k (fair comment I'd say). Stop trying to twist what I've said man.

 

[Mrjardine]

It could certainly do with it....

Tbf I'm going to leave it and not post anymore in here as he's a lost cause. We've both stretched things a bit far at times and made mistakes, but whereas I've accepted I was wrong on the games delap played or Everton in the CL, he just either ignores it or repeats what he originally said. He asks for quotes , I provide them and then He doubts them. He states things, I provide facts and stats to prove them wrong and I'm a 'revisionist' because I've actually looked for evidence to back up my memory. He then uses google to the point he virtually copies and pastes a section from someone's wiki page and admits he checked up on Darren wards page, but repeats the 'revisionist' comments wherever possible to lessen what I've said. He's even took his own negative skewed memory and made his own mind up over the words of Niall Quinn, whilst all along calling himself 'balanced' as casting doubt over others ability to be so.

I might be bad at times, but he's a special case.

You would do well to remember our last long winded conversation regarding Scocco Bonny lad when you stated pretty much all the same things about me you've said here. We both know who's judgement was the more accurate on that one don't we!
I have acknowledged I was wrong regarding Scott being here prior to Goodman as well so don't try to make out I'm being blatantly obstinate. If you disprove me on anything I will hold my hands up.
We have had a difference of opinion but it's been a debate I've enjoyed and I'm a little disappointed in what you have posted here as I felt it was a discussion held in a fairly reasonable spirit.

 

[Perryqhill]

You would do well to remember our last long winded conversation regarding Scocco Bonny lad when you stated pretty much all the same things about me you've said here. We both know who's judgement was the more accurate on that one don't we!
I have acknowledged I was wrong regarding Scott being here prior to Goodman as well so don't try to make out I'm being blatantly obstinate. If you disprove me on anything I will hold my hands up.
We have had a difference of opinion but it's been a debate I've enjoyed and I'm a little disappointed in what you have posted here as I felt it was a discussion held in a fairly reasonable spirit.

Oh give over, you were too quick off the mark with Scocco AND Vergini and you know it regardless of how it turned out, you were criticising it less than three weeks after signing them. Now because you were wrong on Vergini you completely ignore you mentioned anything and when the topic of Vergini comes up you make out you can't see anything in him.

Fairly good spirit? Only if you didn't miss quote, patronise, invent and weren't completely obstinate could it be in a fairly good spirit. The only thing you've conceded is the Scott and Goodman timing as someone else proved it. I was going to type a long reply, yet again to the post you've just made prior to this one, pointing out obvious things like I never said we had Gyan short term at all (though we ended up kinda having him short term) and the comment was clearly aimed at Welbeck. But some how you've screwed that up into a negative against my post when you've made a mistake.

You also mention how the Bent deal was too good to turn down at a deal up to £24m. Yet who said it was worth £24m? Villa didn't to my knowledge, the people who did were probably the same people who said we turned a deal approaching £20m for Jones, which you wont accept....

Then there's the Craig Russell thing. Most fans know he played games up front and wide before Reid came. But according to you it was just three months before we signed Angell (how could it be when Angell was signed last week of March and Goodman went the previous year?) and also Russ wouldn't have played up front as we had Williams (who played 3 games as a starter 1 as sub) and Howey who was never a regular here anyway, so I guess Phil Gray was playing up front on his own in your world was he?


You can have the last word, I don't want to waste anymore time on you or your patronising bollocks.

 

[Kevin Arnott's right boot]

Tbf I'm going to leave it and not post anymore in here.

 

[Mrjardine]

Oh give over, you were too quick off the mark with Scocco AND Vergini and you know it regardless of how it turned out, you were criticising it less than three weeks after signing them. Now because you were wrong on Vergini you completely ignore you mentioned anything and when the topic of Vergini comes up you make out you can't see anything in him.

Fairly good spirit? Only if you didn't miss quote, patronise, invent and weren't completely obstinate could it be in a fairly good spirit. The only thing you've conceded is the Scott and Goodman timing as someone else proved it. I was going to type a long reply, yet again to the post you've just made prior to this one, pointing out obvious things like I never said we had Gyan short term at all (though we ended up kinda having him short term) and the comment was clearly aimed at Welbeck. But some how you've screwed that up into a negative against my post when you've made a mistake.

You also mention how the Bent deal was too good to turn down at a deal up to £24m. Yet who said it was worth £24m? Villa didn't to my knowledge, the people who did were probably the same people who said we turned a deal approaching £20m for Jones, which you wont accept....

Then there's the Craig Russell thing. Most fans know he played games up front and wide before Reid came. But according to you it was just three months before we signed Angell (how could it be when Angell was signed last week of March and Goodman went the previous year?) and also Russ wouldn't have played up front as we had Williams (who played 3 games as a starter 1 as sub) and Howey who was never a regular here anyway, so I guess Phil Gray was playing up front on his own in your world was he?


You can have the last word, I don't want to waste anymore time on you or your patronising bollocks.

I was quick off the mark by saying it was odd that we'd spent 4m on a striker of which we were in dire need of yet in his 2nd game available he wasn't even on the bench? This despite poyet stating that any players he brought in would be ready for action? No perry I read between the lines and was spot on, even now after I have been totally vindicated in what I said you still can't just accept that I had a point. As for vergini he wasn't really the subject of out debate he may have got the odd mention but it was mainly scocco who we differed on. For what it's worth I still don't particularly rate vergini as he was awful at centre half but did do a steady job at right back. Playing him behind Johnson as it showed nullifies our best player though as Vergini hasn't got pace or energy to get up and down. Ends justified the means though and he played his part in our great escape.
Look again you said we had GYAN and WELBECK short term. Only have to look at your post to see that isn't a misquote. I now know what you meant but it was far from clear.
Bent was sold and on just about every official transfer fee article it stated that fee. You've also stated this so you're now arguing against your own comments!
I have said Russell played just about all his football as a wide man prior to Reid. You then say you can remember him playing his only game for smith as a forward!! How the fuck can you remember that man! Then the best one here is you having a go at me for saying Angell signed three months after Goodman was sold even though I'm about 3 weeks out after you had earlier said six months!!! You defy belief at times.
Williams started 3 and howey played a fair few games so in that time we'll have played maybe 15 games? So 3 by Williams and I'd say majority of rest would be Howey and Gray.
As for patronising the phrase 'none as blind as those who choose not to see' could've been made for you!
Dear oh dear!

 

[Perryqhill]

I was quick off the mark by saying it was odd that we'd spent 4m on a striker of which we were in dire need of yet in his 2nd game available he wasn't even on the bench? This despite poyet stating that any players he brought in would be ready for action? No perry I read between the lines and was spot on, even now after I have been totally vindicated in what I said you still can't just accept that I had a point. As for vergini he wasn't really the subject of out debate he may have got the odd mention but it was mainly scocco who we differed on. For what it's worth I still don't particularly rate vergini as he was awful at centre half but did do a steady job at right back. Playing him behind Johnson as it showed nullifies our best player though as Vergini hasn't got pace or energy to get up and down. Ends justified the means though and he played his part in our great escape.
Look again you said we had GYAN and WELBECK short term. Only have to look at your post to see that isn't a misquote. I now know what you meant but it was far from clear.

Quick off the mark as you had wrote him off at that point and Vergini was very much part of that initial debate by you, hence you keep on mentioning how Poyet had originally said anyone coming in would be ready straight away and than after signing those two also said we wouldn't see the best of both of them for a period of time. That was one of your main points for a while and you mentioned both.

The Gyan thing is clear as day in the full context of what I was saying.

we knew Bent was looking to move as he'd wanted to go to Fenerbache during the summer and had Gyan and Welbeck short term, with Campbell on the way back who Bruce rated.

I could have maybe broke the sentence up, added an 'also' in before Welbeck, but seeing as it was about our options being covered at that time of Bents sale and short term with Welbeck I fail to see what point you're actually trying to make even if I meant Gyan was only here short term (which actually ended up being the case).

Bent was sold and on just about every official transfer fee article it stated that fee.

What in the name of flying fuck is an "official transfer fee article" when it's at home?

Even now transfer league.co.uk what a lot of people on here use says £18m.
The BBC said £18m which could rise to £24m http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/9364092.stm
Telegraph £18m rising to £24m http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ue-24m-move-to-Aston-Villa-for-the-money.html
Independant £18m with add ons which could rise to £24m http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-sign-darren-bent-in-record-deal-2187369.html

And just about every other media outlet says the same.

You've also stated this so you're now arguing against your own comments!

I've said £18m rising to £24m. I'm absolutely not arguing against my comments, it's bloody obvious what the initial fee was. What we don't know and never will is what it ended up at, I'm guessing nowhere near £24m given Bent's form after his first half season. This is more of your wiggling out of it bullshit. I've simply questioned why you're willing to take the upper figure released by the press and various sources at SAFC for the Bent deal and yet not for the Jones deal.

I have said Russell played just about all his football as a wide man prior to Reid. You then say you can remember him playing his only game for smith as a forward!! How the fuck can you remember that man!

I'm saying he didn't, you were saying he played exclusively wide before Reid arrived. He played mainly wide for Butcher, played a few roles in not many games for Crosby and he played up front and wide for Buxton. I remember the game under Smith as he was just gone 17 IIRC and Marco had just left. Around the time Rush scored a couple against Palace or Brighton.

Then the best one here is you having a go at me for saying Angell signed three months after Goodman was sold even though I'm about 3 weeks out after you had earlier said six months!!! You defy belief at times.

I was out yes, but you made it sound as if we instantly went out after a striker, when we didn't and instead instantly got a left back. Williams only played three games and went. Howey wasn't a regular either. Russ was getting his chance that season, but never took it, hence we ended up getting Angell.

Stat Cat says Gray played 42 times that season, but that includes cup games too.
Goodman played 18 (1 as sub, as I said he was left out)
Williams played 3
Russell played 38 (including 10 as sub)
Lee Howey 15 (10 as sub)
Brodie 8 (7 as sub)
Angell 8 (March 23rd onwards)

So basically Gray only missed 4 games (46 game season). Goodman was gone early December and started 17, add Williams 3 onto that and it's 20 games, but Howey only started 5. If for arguments sake we say Howey only started once Gooman left, are you telling me that there was only 8 games (which Howey and Williams started) between December sixth when Don left and March 23rd when Angell arrived?

If you take Williams 3, Goodmans 17, Angells 8 and Howey's 5 starts that's 33 starts which leaves 13 starts upfront for someone....and that's not accounting for the fact that Gray has missed 4 too. Who do you suppose played in that role? all of that is counting Don and Gray playing league games only, when it actually looks like those totals include cups too.


The game before Don left:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=395&LU=S&LUID=116
As I said, Russ up front, Don comes on for him!

I also picked a team sheet from December that season, Reading on Dec;
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=396&LU=S&LUID=116
Russ upfront! Looks like Howey comes on for Atkinson and Russ would move wide.

Heres another:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=398&LU=S&LUID=116
Howey and Russ upfront!

and again:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=400&LU=S&LUID=116

and for most of them at that time, the team line up matched what it would if Russ was playing up front and not wide, i.e. no Howey.

Williams started 3 and howey played a fair few games so in that time we'll have played maybe 15 games? So 3 by Williams and I'd say majority of rest would be Howey and Gray.

And you would be miles out.

 

[the streaker]

Oh no he isn't.

Quick off the mark as you had wrote him off at that point and Vergini was very much part of that initial debate by you, hence you keep on mentioning how Poyet had originally said anyone coming in would be ready straight away and than after signing those two also said we wouldn't see the best of both of them for a period of time. That was one of your main points for a while and you mentioned both.

The Gyan thing is clear as day in the full context of what I was saying.

I could have maybe broke the sentence up, added an 'also' in before Welbeck, but seeing as it was about our options being covered at that time of Bents sale and short term with Welbeck I fail to see what point you're actually trying to make even if I meant Gyan was only here short term (which actually ended up being the case).




What in the name of flying fuck is an "official transfer fee article" when it's at home?

Even now transfer league.co.uk what a lot of people on here use says £18m.
The BBC said £18m which could rise to £24m http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/9364092.stm
Telegraph £18m rising to £24m http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ue-24m-move-to-Aston-Villa-for-the-money.html
Independant £18m with add ons which could rise to £24m http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-sign-darren-bent-in-record-deal-2187369.html

And just about every other media outlet says the same.



I've said £18m rising to £24m. I'm absolutely not arguing against my comments, it's bloody obvious what the initial fee was. What we don't know and never will is what it ended up at, I'm guessing nowhere near £24m given Bent's form after his first half season. This is more of your wiggling out of it bullshit. I've simply questioned why you're willing to take the upper figure released by the press and various sources at SAFC for the Bent deal and yet not for the Jones deal.



I'm saying he didn't, you were saying he played exclusively wide before Reid arrived. He played mainly wide for Butcher, played a few roles in not many games for Crosby and he played up front and wide for Buxton. I remember the game under Smith as he was just gone 17 IIRC and Marco had just left. Around the time Rush scored a couple against Palace or Brighton.



I was out yes, but you made it sound as if we instantly went out after a striker, when we didn't and instead instantly got a left back. Williams only played three games and went. Howey wasn't a regular either. Russ was getting his chance that season, but never took it, hence we ended up getting Angell.

Stat Cat says Gray played 42 times that season, but that includes cup games too.
Goodman played 18 (1 as sub, as I said he was left out)
Williams played 3
Russell played 38 (including 10 as sub)
Lee Howey 15 (10 as sub)
Brodie 8 (7 as sub)
Angell 8 (March 23rd onwards)

So basically Gray only missed 4 games (46 game season). Goodman was gone early December and started 17, add Williams 3 onto that and it's 20 games, but Howey only started 5. If for arguments sake we say Howey only started once Gooman left, are you telling me that there was only 8 games (which Howey and Williams started) between December sixth when Don left and March 23rd when Angell arrived?

If you take Williams 3, Goodmans 17, Angells 8 and Howey's 5 starts that's 33 starts which leaves 13 starts upfront for someone....and that's not accounting for the fact that Gray has missed 4 too. Who do you suppose played in that role? all of that is counting Don and Gray playing league games only, when it actually looks like those totals include cups too.


The game before Don left:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=395&LU=S&LUID=116
As I said, Russ up front, Don comes on for him!

I also picked a team sheet from December that season, Reading on Dec;
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=396&LU=S&LUID=116
Russ upfront! Looks like Howey comes on for Atkinson and Russ would move wide.

Heres another:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=398&LU=S&LUID=116
Howey and Russ upfront!

and again:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=400&LU=S&LUID=116

and for most of them at that time, the team line up matched what it would if Russ was playing up front and not wide, i.e. no Howey.




And you would be miles out.

A record breaker....

 

[Mrjardine]

Quick off the mark as you had wrote him off at that point and Vergini was very much part of that initial debate by you, hence you keep on mentioning how Poyet had originally said anyone coming in would be ready straight away and than after signing those two also said we wouldn't see the best of both of them for a period of time. That was one of your main points for a while and you mentioned both.

The Gyan thing is clear as day in the full context of what I was saying.

I could have maybe broke the sentence up, added an 'also' in before Welbeck, but seeing as it was about our options being covered at that time of Bents sale and short term with Welbeck I fail to see what point you're actually trying to make even if I meant Gyan was only here short term (which actually ended up being the case).




What in the name of flying fuck is an "official transfer fee article" when it's at home?

Even now transfer league.co.uk what a lot of people on here use says £18m.
The BBC said £18m which could rise to £24m http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/9364092.stm
Telegraph £18m rising to £24m http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ue-24m-move-to-Aston-Villa-for-the-money.html
Independant £18m with add ons which could rise to £24m http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-sign-darren-bent-in-record-deal-2187369.html

And just about every other media outlet says the same.



I've said £18m rising to £24m. I'm absolutely not arguing against my comments, it's bloody obvious what the initial fee was. What we don't know and never will is what it ended up at, I'm guessing nowhere near £24m given Bent's form after his first half season. This is more of your wiggling out of it bullshit. I've simply questioned why you're willing to take the upper figure released by the press and various sources at SAFC for the Bent deal and yet not for the Jones deal.



I'm saying he didn't, you were saying he played exclusively wide before Reid arrived. He played mainly wide for Butcher, played a few roles in not many games for Crosby and he played up front and wide for Buxton. I remember the game under Smith as he was just gone 17 IIRC and Marco had just left. Around the time Rush scored a couple against Palace or Brighton.



I was out yes, but you made it sound as if we instantly went out after a striker, when we didn't and instead instantly got a left back. Williams only played three games and went. Howey wasn't a regular either. Russ was getting his chance that season, but never took it, hence we ended up getting Angell.

Stat Cat says Gray played 42 times that season, but that includes cup games too.
Goodman played 18 (1 as sub, as I said he was left out)
Williams played 3
Russell played 38 (including 10 as sub)
Lee Howey 15 (10 as sub)
Brodie 8 (7 as sub)
Angell 8 (March 23rd onwards)

So basically Gray only missed 4 games (46 game season). Goodman was gone early December and started 17, add Williams 3 onto that and it's 20 games, but Howey only started 5. If for arguments sake we say Howey only started once Gooman left, are you telling me that there was only 8 games (which Howey and Williams started) between December sixth when Don left and March 23rd when Angell arrived?

If you take Williams 3, Goodmans 17, Angells 8 and Howey's 5 starts that's 33 starts which leaves 13 starts upfront for someone....and that's not accounting for the fact that Gray has missed 4 too. Who do you suppose played in that role? all of that is counting Don and Gray playing league games only, when it actually looks like those totals include cups too.


The game before Don left:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=395&LU=S&LUID=116
As I said, Russ up front, Don comes on for him!

I also picked a team sheet from December that season, Reading on Dec;
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=396&LU=S&LUID=116
Russ upfront! Looks like Howey comes on for Atkinson and Russ would move wide.

Heres another:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=398&LU=S&LUID=116
Howey and Russ upfront!

and again:
http://www.thestatcat.co.uk/Match.aspx?MatchID=400&LU=S&LUID=116

and for most of them at that time, the team line up matched what it would if Russ was playing up front and not wide, i.e. no Howey.




And you would be miles out.

No no no perry. I never once wrote him off as I hadn't seen him play. What I did was express concern based on Poyets comments, The money spent on him, our desperate situation and the fact that he couldn't make the bench his second available game even though none of our strikers could buy a goal. The debate carried on for a little while after that as well, the Southampton game in which he was awful by the way actually had some experts on here talking about how great his movement was and that he was a false number 9! (WTF). You even conceded in a later thread that you were a little hasty with your assessment of my opinion and now you're back to wriggling again.
I've made my position on Vergini pretty clear. He done ok at full back but I stand by my comments that he isn't the answer.
The reason the Gyan comment became muddled was because he was only here a short time and that's what I thought you were getting at and as I said its easy to see how. I also stated last post that I now understood what you meant so why you feel the need to labour the point I've no idea.
Figures become a lot more concrete upon the conclusion of a deal rather than newspaper ramblings when it comes to offers made as that is pure speculation. Nothing has to be accounted for with offers unlike actual deals. I don't for one minute think we got 24m for Bent. What I said was at the time and given how well he'd done for us it would've been a fair assumption that he'd reach his target clauses in contract in order to top off the deal. As it turned out I wouldn't imagine he's got anywhere near it. Hindsight a wonderful thing though.
Regardless of how many games williams played he was a striker and we went after him not long after losing goodman, then pretty much a month or so after Williams loan expired we went and got Angell.
I've had a good scout through that stat cat site Perry and as I've said before if I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up and it proves that Russell played up top a lot more than I can recall. He still played wide more often than upfront mind in the seasons before Reid came so my point in that respect was valid but I'd have said probably a handful at most as a striker and I'd have been wrong.

 

[Perryqhill]

No no no perry. I never once wrote him off as I hadn't seen him play. What I did was express concern based on Poyets comments, The money spent on him, our desperate situation and the fact that he couldn't make the bench his second available game even though none of our strikers could buy a goal. The debate carried on for a little while after that as well, the Southampton game in which he was awful by the way actually had some experts on here talking about how great his movement was and that he was a false number 9! (WTF). You even conceded in a later thread that you were a little hasty with your assessment of my opinion and now you're back to wriggling again.

You actually stopped just short of righting him off completely, but you expressed doubt on everything around him on many occasions and were negative about every little thing about him you could be, even suggesting he would be sitting in the reserves for ever and when someone suggested he might be good or very good, you also strongly suggested he'd fail and poured scorn and tried to belittle on anyone who disagreed or told you to wait to judge.


The highlighted bit is absolute bullshit, I done nothing of the sort. I later conceded you had been proven absolutely correct on your initial thoughts, but you were still too quick to judge as you were making these judgements before two or three weeks had passed. More outright lies....

The reason the Gyan comment became muddled was because he was only here a short time and that's what I thought you were getting at and as I said its easy to see how. I also stated last post that I now understood what you meant so why you feel the need to labour the point I've no idea.

I simply pointed out how difficult it would have been to come to the conclusion you did on it, given the context it was posted in.

Figures become a lot more concrete upon the conclusion of a deal rather than newspaper ramblings when it comes to offers made as that is pure speculation. Nothing has to be accounted for with offers unlike actual deals. I don't for one minute think we got 24m for Bent. What I said was at the time and given how well he'd done for us it would've been a fair assumption that he'd reach his target clauses in contract in order to top off the deal. As it turned out I wouldn't imagine he's got anywhere near it. Hindsight a wonderful thing though.

Most of what I posted was the conclusion of the deal. From memory and I'm willing to be proven wrong on this (I also watched the Houllier, Bent and Villa CEO video yesterday on Bent's signing) that Villa never once went public on the fee. The only people who mentioned the fee was the press and rumblings from us, exactly the same as the proposed Spurs deals for Jones and yet you still are willing to take one at face value and not the other...

Regardless of how many games williams played he was a striker and we went after him not long after losing goodman, then pretty much a month or so after Williams loan expired we went and got Angell.
I've had a good scout through that stat cat site Perry and as I've said before if I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up and it proves that Russell played up top a lot more than I can recall. He still played wide more often than upfront mind in the seasons before Reid came so my point in that respect was valid but I'd have said probably a handful at most as a striker and I'd have been wrong.

Williams came in as he was experienced and available for next to nowt and our options had been cut down. For a while people were willing Russ to get more chances up front as he'd done well enough on the wing and well enough in games upfront to justify it, hence Goodman dropping to the bench before he left. What Russ didn't do at that time was take his chance when given runs up there, until later when Reid came in and the side improved. He was given chances to do so though.

 

[Mrjardine]

You actually stopped just short of righting him off completely, but you expressed doubt on everything around him on many occasions and were negative about every little thing about him you could be, even suggesting he would be sitting in the reserves for ever and when someone suggested he might be good or very good, you also strongly suggested he'd fail and poured scorn and tried to belittle on anyone who disagreed or told you to wait to judge.


The highlighted bit is absolute bullshit, I done nothing of the sort. I later conceded you had been proven absolutely correct on your initial thoughts, but you were still too quick to judge as you were making these judgements before two or three weeks had passed. More outright lies....




I simply pointed out how difficult it would have been to come to the conclusion you did on it, given the context it was posted in.



Most of what I posted was the conclusion of the deal. From memory and I'm willing to be proven wrong on this (I also watched the Houllier, Bent and Villa CEO video yesterday on Bent's signing) that Villa never once went public on the fee. The only people who mentioned the fee was the press and rumblings from us, exactly the same as the proposed Spurs deals for Jones and yet you still are willing to take one at face value and not the other...




Williams came in as he was experienced and available for next to nowt and our options had been cut down. For a while people were willing Russ to get more chances up front as he'd done well enough on the wing and well enough in games upfront to justify it, hence Goodman dropping to the bench before he left. What Russ didn't do at that time was take his chance when given runs up there, until later when Reid came in and the side improved. He was given chances to do so though.

No I didn't I said given everything that was happening and being said that I was concerned, nothing more. You then took it upon yourself to suggest I was horribly jumping gun and knew nothing of modern football (backhandedly by comparing me to MBH and saying he was clueless) . If you'd said that you thought it too early but accept my point then nothing further would have been said but in you're usual pompous,arrogant manner you just can't accept anybody having a different opinion you yours. Even that idiot Bristow got one over on you on something a few months back if I recall and it was clear as day, with a good few posters revelling in it and you still couldn't hold your hands up. You use words regarding Delap as being 'a little hasty' rather than just saying 'I was wrong' as I have done on the occasions I have been. A little humility would do you good Bonny lad.
The Bent fee has been documented in just about every article or transfer table regarding the deal. As I also said things become clearer regarding facts when a deal had been done rather than tittle tattle when it comes to alleged interest or offers.
I have never doubted that Jones had garnered interest but I cast huge doubt of the alleged offerings of 15-20m as he was never close to being that good.
As I've said Russell played more than I thought up top and I was wrong, but it was under Reid he flourished and he should take enormous credit for that as it was pretty much the only period in russells career that he flourished.

 

[Scary nuns]

This thread is a drug.