Our turnover of playing staff since our last promotion must be the highest.

[Perryqhill]

You're speculating on the affect it had on the side. Unless you're now some kind of psychologist of course. Are you telling me that all relegated sides start off behind the 8 ball? Come off it man.

I'm speculating? Dear God you will say anything to justify your side of the argument wont you?

You are underestimating the relegation hangover though surely? Your manipulating of facts is to be commended mind. Sunderland had lost every asset we had in that summer after relegation and unlike Keane , McCarthy was given a pittance to work with. Who were the big wage earners by the way? Stewart, arca, mcateer perhaps but the rest were very much championship players or in the case of bjorklund and Babb too flight players who were past their best.

That is the biggest bullshit post I've ever seen on here, takes the biscuit and nomatter how many times you claim I'm manipulating facts (whilst at the same time you do so yourself) doesn't make it true you know.

Keane had virtually nowt when he arrived, even Arca had left. Slightly ironic you say he did have more than McCarthy when Arca became our best player when McCarthy had a firesale and Keane wasn't even left with him or a player of his quality.

McCarthy was left with Myhre, Poom, Ingham, Alnwick, Wright, Williams, Bjorklund, Babb, McCartney, Thornton, Arca, Thirlwell (an alleged ridiculous 8k per week), Clark, Maley (on around 3k per week when Oster ended his career as the courts heard), Collins P, Oster, Piper, McAteer, Stewart, Kyle, Proctor, Butler, Reddy who all had first team experience and also started the season with Kilbane. He added Breen, Smith, Healy, Whitley, Byfield, Deane. And don't go down the "Maley, Clark and Collins weren't senior pros' I've included them as Maley's wage is relevant considering his standing as a youth and Collins was almost as highly regarded too. Clark was signed from Man Utd and even Ingham was brought in for a fee despite being rubbish. McCarthy had a far better squad to work with than Keane, it isn't really open for dispute, only a fool would argue it. McCarthy's squad must have cost us something like £15m.

You ask who the big earners were and then suggest it wouldn't be Babb or Bjorklund by virtue of the fact they were past their bests....err hello they were signed for the top flight regardless of what ages and stages of career they were at. Players like Wright (£3m from Liverpool), Piper (£3.5m from Leicester) might not have been big names or set the world alight, but they came with big fees and the wage obviously follows.

Well I'm just going off what a lad who shared a dressing room with him for years said, not only to me but on national radio as well.
He also said perhaps a bit tongue in cheek when I think of it that that was why Reidy dropped him at that point.
Perry mentioned that kubickis form dropped right off and he couldn't understand it. I put it down to him perhaps being finished and the higher level at that stage of career was too much. I merely added the part about his lack of popularity (according to Ord) as food for thought.

His form dropped right off (as I said) when he was returned to the side at left wing back later in the season. There's nothing perplexing about it. I'm not saying it wouldn't have anyway at right back, but at the point of being dropped about six or seven games in there was no way he was showing signs of decline or deserving of it.

 

[Mrjardine]

Wasn't Keane when the alleged £15m to £20m was offered though, transfer window after he just left. Doesn't matter what it was, there was interest which you denied and we sold him for more than he paid anyway.
Mary played a few seasons in second tier for Fulham as well so not sure he did but itl be over the favour after that.
Russell hardly featured under smith or Crosby as we had Byrne,davenport and goodman as our forward options that season. Under butcher it was all Gray and Goodman. He'd played at least 90-95% of his first team career on wing for us. Any glimpses upfront were the exception rather than the rule. Reid was the one who gave him his head up top.









And I never compared him to a Swedish international, but what the fuck does that



Cun season for us, but was very very slow and his form tailed off quickly. Both players were only back up, but the point was even back then we'd spent more on them than players we had at the club in central midfield when Keane arrived and thus greater depth in that area.



Mary a season up with us and several at Fulham,where he was a regular for about five seasons, easily breezed past 100 league games.



Of course he did, his contract was running out fast. He was our main regular pick striker and top scorer till March when he'd decided not to sign a new deal and Stewart came back. He went to Nancy on a Bosman as many went over there at the time (Makin, Allan Johnston) because at that point there was confusion about the Bosman deals to the same league - you still needed to pay the club compo. So many players went to France to cash in.

Russell played as a striker when he made his debut in 92 under Denis Smith, then he played as a striker under Crosby and Butcher. At first he was a striker under Buxton too, but then Buxton began to use him wide left and moved Smith wide right. That coincided with a good run of form towards the end of Buxton's first season and he stayed with it for a while that's all. Suggesting he never played upfront is downright bollocks I'm afraid.

The money offered for Jones regardless of who was manger was never 15 to 20m mind. Do you seriously think that we'd turn down money like that? I don't doubt he was sort after as he initially done very well and as I've said was a good signing by Keane but don't start throwing mythical 'paper talk ' figures up to boost your argument. I also never denied that Jones was a player with potential suitors just that it wasn't the type of big money offer that was too good to turn down like Bents was.
Again you talk of Kieran Richardson going for 8m! Sheer speculation. You find me a quote from either the bidding club or ourselves regarding this and il accept it but again it will only be paper talk. As a utility player he was ok and gave good service but nobody would've thrown 8m at him and if did I'd imagine we'd have smaller hands off or else we'd be stupid!
Well as I've said countless times I'm not MBH so not for the first time in this debate you're wrong again Bonny lad.
Why were we looking to move two
strikers on who were better than the one we were bringing in? An utterly pointless signing especially given that Keane will have known it was extremely likely that he'd be looking to add to that area again before window shut. It was poor perry stop trying it backhandedly justify it.
Newcastle is a fashionable city but as I've said players as they do now can live there and play for us and there days of dining at the top table were a distant memory at the time of Keane taking us up. The myth of needing to bring in countless players and resorting to negative football to survive as a newly promoted club have been quashed by teams like Swansea and Southampton. With the right management and a few shrewd purchases it can be done without squandering millions on poor players.
Many players don't want to make the step up? Why oh why would that be the case? You have went on and on about how our status was shot to bits are you now saying it was that bad a player from the championship would think twice about joining us? Would their status as a second tier club be greater than ours? The way you're talking you'd think we had Fred West in charge trying to bring players into Cromwell street FC! Give over man!
I never said you did say it was the players or the Echo. I said both as it's only the local rags who would show any interest in us at that time . You love to chat about status well I can tell you now that at that point we were a complete non entity as far as the national press were concerned so to suggest they were banging the drum is laughable. National television were talking about it as well? Are you joking me? There was only match of the day (all top flight) and the sports section of national news at that time. I hardly think they'd be wasting there time on a club who were mid table in the second tier having won a couple of games. Beyond fanciful that mind.
So he was a laughing stock as you accept under Butcher then rarely featured under Buxton. Curious as to how he could have lost that status given he hardly played mind. As I've said Reid saved his career as it was going nowhere.
So Lawrence was out of form yet a man (ord) who had barely played for a season and a half had somehow matured just in time for Reid coming in!! Your Barmy interpretation of events is going off the scale here mind!
You love talking of how all these clubs have bid for our players mind. 2m for smith in a time we we had no money and had shown we were only too happy to sell our main assets (gabbiadini,goodman). Are you seriously telling me we turned that down? Smith was ok. Nothing more and Hysen has had a better career than him I'd suggest.
So was Cunnington shit or useful? I'm having trouble following here mind. I know the answer by the way but you seem a little confused. Keanes back up was an Eire international who went into play numerous premier league games for Stoke.
Ferguson never looked a useful player for us either. I'm curious as to how you keep saying how well all these players performed yet we continually flirted with the drop zone? Why do you keep rambling on about money spent as well? Apart from the funds Butcher got any other monies spent were accrued by selling our assets (goodman,gabbiadini) and the price is irrelevant as it gives no indication as to the quality of the player. If Keane had inherited Flo would you accept me talking of how he had this 7m pound player at his disposal? Of course not because he was hopeless. I see no reason why you keep trying to use this as some yardstick of quality.
Mary played a few seasons in second tier for Fulham as well so not sure he did but itl be over the 50-60 mark id imagine.
'm pretty sure that Craig Russell was our top scorer that season as well. Seem to remember Gray being dropped against Millwall (game we win 6-0) and not being fully in favour after that.
Russell hardly featured under smith or Crosby as we had Byrne,davenport and goodman as our forward options that season. Under butcher it was all Gray and Goodman. He'd played at least 90-95% of his first team career on wing for us. Any glimpses upfront were the exception rather than the rule. Reid was the one who gave him his head up top.

 

[Mrjardine]

I'm speculating? Dear God you will say anything to justify your side of the argument wont you?




That is the biggest bullshit post I've ever seen on here, takes the biscuit and nomatter how many times you claim I'm manipulating facts (whilst at the same time you do so yourself) doesn't make it true you know.

Keane had virtually nowt when he arrived, even Arca had left. Slightly ironic you say he did have more than McCarthy when Arca became our best player when McCarthy had a firesale and Keane wasn't even left with him or a player of his quality.

McCarthy was left with Myhre, Poom, Ingham, Alnwick, Wright, Williams, Bjorklund, Babb, McCartney, Thornton, Arca, Thirlwell (an alleged ridiculous 8k per week), Clark, Maley (on around 3k per week when Oster ended his career as the courts heard), Collins P, Oster, Piper, McAteer, Stewart, Kyle, Proctor, Butler, Reddy who all had first team experience and also started the season with Kilbane. He added Breen, Smith, Healy, Whitley, Byfield, Deane. And don't go down the "Maley, Clark and Collins weren't senior pros' I've included them as Maley's wage is relevant considering his standing as a youth and Collins was almost as highly regarded too. Clark was signed from Man Utd and even Ingham was brought in for a fee despite being rubbish. McCarthy had a far better squad to work with than Keane, it isn't really open for dispute, only a fool would argue it. McCarthy's squad must have cost us something like £15m.

You ask who the big earners were and then suggest it wouldn't be Babb or Bjorklund by virtue of the fact they were past their bests....err hello they were signed for the top flight regardless of what ages and stages of career they were at. Players like Wright (£3m from Liverpool), Piper (£3.5m from Leicester) might not have been big names or set the world alight, but they came with big fees and the wage obviously follows.



His form dropped right off (as I said) when he was returned to the side at left wing back later in the season. There's nothing perplexing about it. I'm not saying it wouldn't have anyway at right back, but at the point of being dropped about six or seven games in there was no way he was showing signs of decline or deserving of it.

Of course you're speculating. By saying what you did you're suggesting that every club who goes down starts at a disadvantage to other clubs as they don't have the mental baggage! What a crock of shit man! You've surely run out of straws now mind
Keane was left with players who had been part of a promotion side 16 month earlier. I wasn't aware I had said that McCarthys situation was worse than Keanes just that they had similair issues to deal with. It was Reids situation I had said was a worse. A lot worse at that.
You keep talking about how good a squad is based on the transfer fee of a player man. If McCarthys squad did cost 15m then 3.5m was spent on Matty Piper who was a crock! That doesn't benefit McCarthys situation one bit. You then talk about these players on 3k as if that's big money for a championship side. It's only ten year ago man. You also need to factor in that all these big wage earners will have had the customary 25% or whatever it is taken off due to the inevitable relegation clause. You are the one who keeps making the song and dance about how much the players cost and their respective wage. Keanes expenditure in the top flight should show that the price tag has no bearing on how good the player will end up being.
He didn't deserve dropping because we didn't have an adequate replacement but as ivecsaidcthe warning signs were there when he looked completely out depth in the derby. He went to wolves season after played a few games then ended up at Darlington I think. Like I said he was all but done in that final season here.

 

[Andy Reids Love Chil]

The money offered for Jones regardless of who was manger was never 15 to 20m mind. Do you seriously think that we'd turn down money like that? I don't doubt he was sort after as he initially done very well and as I've said was a good signing by Keane but don't start throwing mythical 'paper talk ' figures up to boost your argument. I also never denied that Jones was a player with potential suitors just that it wasn't the type of big money offer that was too good to turn down like Bents was.
Again you talk of Kieran Richardson going for 8m! Sheer speculation. You find me a quote from either the bidding club or ourselves regarding this and il accept it but again it will only be paper talk. As a utility player he was ok and gave good service but nobody would've thrown 8m at him and if did I'd imagine we'd have smaller hands off or else we'd be stupid!
Well as I've said countless times I'm not MBH so not for the first time in this debate you're wrong again Bonny lad.
Why were we looking to move two
strikers on who were better than the one we were bringing in? An utterly pointless signing especially given that Keane will have known it was extremely likely that he'd be looking to add to that area again before window shut. It was poor perry stop trying it backhandedly justify it.
Newcastle is a fashionable city but as I've said players as they do now can live there and play for us and there days of dining at the top table were a distant memory at the time of Keane taking us up. The myth of needing to bring in countless players and resorting to negative football to survive as a newly promoted club have been quashed by teams like Swansea and Southampton. With the right management and a few shrewd purchases it can be done without squandering millions on poor players.
Many players don't want to make the step up? Why oh why would that be the case? You have went on and on about how our status was shot to bits are you now saying it was that bad a player from the championship would think twice about joining us? Would their status as a second tier club be greater than ours? The way you're talking you'd think we had Fred West in charge trying to bring players into Cromwell street FC! Give over man!
I never said you did say it was the players or the Echo. I said both as it's only the local rags who would show any interest in us at that time . You love to chat about status well I can tell you now that at that point we were a complete non entity as far as the national press were concerned so to suggest they were banging the drum is laughable. National television were talking about it as well? Are you joking me? There was only match of the day (all top flight) and the sports section of national news at that time. I hardly think they'd be wasting there time on a club who were mid table in the second tier having won a couple of games. Beyond fanciful that mind.
So he was a laughing stock as you accept under Butcher then rarely featured under Buxton. Curious as to how he could have lost that status given he hardly played mind. As I've said Reid saved his career as it was going nowhere.
So Lawrence was out of form yet a man (ord) who had barely played for a season and a half had somehow matured just in time for Reid coming in!! Your Barmy interpretation of events is going off the scale here mind!
You love talking of how all these clubs have bid for our players mind. 2m for smith in a time we we had no money and had shown we were only too happy to sell our main assets (gabbiadini,goodman). Are you seriously telling me we turned that down? Smith was ok. Nothing more and Hysen has had a better career than him I'd suggest.
So was Cunnington shit or useful? I'm having trouble following here mind. I know the answer by the way but you seem a little confused. Keanes back up was an Eire international who went into play numerous premier league games for Stoke.
Ferguson never looked a useful player for us either. I'm curious as to how you keep saying how well all these players performed yet we continually flirted with the drop zone? Why do you keep rambling on about money spent as well? Apart from the funds Butcher got any other monies spent were accrued by selling our assets (goodman,gabbiadini) and the price is irrelevant as it gives no indication as to the quality of the player. If Keane had inherited Flo would you accept me talking of how he had this 7m pound player at his disposal? Of course not because he was hopeless. I see no reason why you keep trying to use this as some yardstick of quality.
Mary played a few seasons in second tier for Fulham as well so not sure he did but itl be over the 50-60 mark id imagine.
'm pretty sure that Craig Russell was our top scorer that season as well. Seem to remember Gray being dropped against Millwall (game we win 6-0) and not being fully in favour after that.
Russell hardly featured under smith or Crosby as we had Byrne,davenport and goodman as our forward options that season. Under butcher it was all Gray and Goodman. He'd played at least 90-95% of his first team career on wing for us. Any glimpses upfront were the exception rather than the rule. Reid was the one who gave him his head up top.

I know for a fact that Spurs offered £17m for Jones. Niall Quinn told me.

 

[Mrjardine]

I know for a fact that Spurs offered £17m for Jones. Niall Quinn told me.

No disrespect but I'm not convinced I'm afraid. As ive said show me this on record and il believe it.

 

[Andy Reids Love Chil]

No disrespect but I'm not convinced I'm afraid. As ive said show me this on record and il believe it.

Well it was a conversation, I can't really provide proof of that can I?

 

[the streaker]

I know for a fact that Spurs offered £17m for Jones. Niall Quinn told me.

More fool him for not taking it...

Yet we champion having football people in charge of the club. .

 

[Andy Reids Love Chil]

No disrespect but I'm not convinced I'm afraid. As ive said show me this on record and il believe it.

Obviously I can't prove evidence of what Quinn said to me but link below is an article from BBC saying Sbragia won't sell Jones despite reports of a £15m bid.

Edit: forgot to post link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/sunderland/7830465.stm

 

[Mrjardine]

Obviously I can't prove evidence of what Quinn said to me but link below is an article from BBC saying Sbragia won't sell Jones despite reports of a £15m bid.

I don't doubt the rumours as I remember them but as I said there's nothing concrete in form of quotes that I can recall.

 

[Perryqhill]

The money offered for Jones regardless of who was manger was never 15 to 20m mind. Do you seriously think that we'd turn down money like that? I don't doubt he was sort after as he initially done very well and as I've said was a good signing by Keane but don't start throwing mythical 'paper talk ' figures up to boost your argument. I also never denied that Jones was a player with potential suitors just that it wasn't the type of big money offer that was too good to turn down like Bents was.

You have no idea what it was. And why wouldn't we turn that money down? We were lining up to sign Cisse at the time for an agreed £11m before the Euro became stronger and went on to pay £10.5m rising to £16.5m for Bent the next season. Replacing Jones at that point and in the situation we were in would have been nigh on impossible, we couldn't even manage reasonable loans in the January window.

Talking about the fee detracts from the point anyway - there was interest, you said there wasn't. also you are the one who is more concerned with the fee so stop using it and saying I am to boost my argument, I don't need to simply by virtue of the fact there was interest when you said there wasn't. Factually we also went onto sell him for more, so again you're proven incorrect.

Again you talk of Kieran Richardson going for 8m! Sheer speculation.

I think you'll find again that Quinn said it at the time. This was when Newcastle had sold Carroll and were making late desperate bids. Regardless of what panic they were in and whether it was ever on or not, there was a bid.

You find me a quote from either the bidding club or ourselves regarding this and il accept it but again it will only be paper talk. As a utility player he was ok and gave good service but nobody would've thrown 8m at him and if did I'd imagine we'd have smaller hands off or else we'd be stupid!

You're asking for something which you know isn't going to be available, because clubs generally dont come out and announce any fee with a bid these days, so it's unlikely any quote actually exists. Sbragia saying we turned down a bid is the best you're gonna get: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/68399/Gordon-s-battle-to-outsmart-Mart

Meanwhile, Sunderland KO’d an £8m transfer deadline bid from Newcastle for midfield star Kieran Richardson, 24.

Sbragia said: “It was a late bid that we rejected straightaway. Kieran’s important to us.”

He was playing in centre midfield at the time, only a season or so after coming and his stock was high at this point. Again more interest in Keane's players.

Well as I've said countless times I'm not MBH so not for the first time in this debate you're wrong again Bonny lad.

Of course you are and all the regulars on this board know it. Same tired opinions, same arguments, same language and clouded view that you somehow think (and continually claim) is more balanced than everyone elses.

Why were we looking to move two strikers on who were better than the one we were bringing in? An utterly pointless signing especially given that Keane will have known it was extremely likely that he'd be looking to add to that area again before window shut. It was poor perry stop trying it backhandedly justify it.

I've said countless times it was a poor signing and panic, why are you trying to make out I'm saying it wasn't to point score in this? All I'm doing is giving the circumstances at the time.

Many players don't want to make the step up? Why oh why would that be the case?

Many players don't make the step up. what on earth are you on about?

You have went on and on about how our status was shot to bits are you now saying it was that bad a player from the championship would think twice about joining us? Would their status as a second tier club be greater than ours? The way you're talking you'd think we had Fred West in charge trying to bring players into Cromwell street FC! Give over man!

Never said any of that. You on the Sherry?

I never said you did say it was the players or the Echo. I said both as it's only the local rags who would show any interest in us at that time . You love to chat about status well I can tell you now that at that point we were a complete non entity as far as the national press were concerned so to suggest they were banging the drum is laughable. National television were talking about it as well? Are you joking me? There was only match of the day (all top flight) and the sports section of national news at that time. I hardly think they'd be wasting there time on a club who were mid table in the second tier having won a couple of games. Beyond fanciful that mind.

You actually suggested it was the Echo and local players in it, after previously suggesting it was just us fans, obviously trying to belittle the fact it happened and put it down to happy clapper fans or club propaganda. As for being a non entity as far as the national press were concerned, we were having a good cup run and got to the final, just been relegated too. People in and around the media were suggesting a late run, because when you're on a good run and doing well in the cup thats what happens. It's not exactly earth shattering to suggest it, but yeah you go on thinking it's as out there as David Icke.

So he was a laughing stock as you accept under Butcher then rarely featured under Buxton. Curious as to how he could have lost that status given he hardly played mind. As I've said Reid saved his career as it was going nowhere.
So Lawrence was out of form yet a man (ord) who had barely played for a season and a half had somehow matured just in time for Reid coming in!! Your Barmy interpretation of events is going off the scale here mind!

No I didn't accept he was a laughing stock at all, he had a bad period. There's a difference. I also think Reid saved his career by virtue or playing him and in a well organised side. See there you go again, there's no inbetween with you, you simply cannot see detail.

You love talking of how all these clubs have bid for our players mind. 2m for smith in a time we we had no money and had shown we were only too happy to sell our main assets (gabbiadini,goodman). Are you seriously telling me we turned that down? Smith was ok. Nothing more and Hysen has had a better career than him I'd suggest.

Ron Atkinson bid it both times and said it himself.

Hysen has had a better career, but then Kevin Kilbane had a better one than Kevin Phillips, what does that prove?

So was Cunnington shit or useful? I'm having trouble following here mind. I know the answer by the way but you seem a little confused. Keanes back up was an Eire international who went into play numerous premier league games for Stoke.

Cunnington was shit, but as back up at that level was useful. Lets remember what level we're at. Delap was barely fit when here and wasn't really used by Keane, yes he played for Stoke but we all know the reason for that, or are you going to pretend hiis Premiership career wasn't soley based around his long throw?

Ferguson never looked a useful player for us either. I'm curious as to how you keep saying how well all these players performed yet we continually flirted with the drop zone? Why do you keep rambling on about money spent as well? Apart from the funds Butcher got any other monies spent were accrued by selling our assets (goodman,gabbiadini) and the price is irrelevant as it gives no indication as to the quality of the player. If Keane had inherited Flo would you accept me talking of how he had this 7m pound player at his disposal? Of course not because he was hopeless. I see no reason why you keep trying to use this as some yardstick of quality.

Ferguson started off well actually, very tidy on the ball and best passer at the club by a mile. His form and fitness tailed off very quickly though. Again though I was only saying he was useful as back up, how many other Division One clubs had players they had paid £650k for as reserves at that time?

The highlighted bit is quite funny mind, seeing as you were trying to insist the likes of Brown were better than what Reid/McCarthy inherited on the basis that they'd been part of a squad that won the Championship. If I'm on rocky ground suggesting Cunnington and Ferguson were useful back up at that level, you're on even dodgier ground suggesting Brown when he was a guaranteed squad member when Keane arrived.

Mary played a few seasons in second tier for Fulham as well so not sure he did but itl be over the 50-60 mark id imagine.
'm pretty sure that Craig Russell was our top scorer that season as well. Seem to remember Gray being dropped against Millwall (game we win 6-0) and not being fully in favour after that.
Russell hardly featured under smith or Crosby as we had Byrne,davenport and goodman as our forward options that season. Under butcher it was all Gray and Goodman. He'd played at least 90-95% of his first team career on wing for us. Any glimpses upfront were the exception rather than the rule. Reid was the one who gave him his head up top.

Melville played in excess of 100 games top flight for Fulham.

Russell only played one game for Smith IIRC and it was upfront. He broke into the side under Crosby, but started to feature more under Butcher, wide and up front often as a sub. When we sold Goodman it was to raise funds for other areas and one of the reasons for it was because we had Russell who at that point was playing upfront. Goodman was actually left out before he left, for Russell and overall Russell played most of his football upfront.

 

[ilovehorswill]

More fool him for not taking it...

Yet we champion having football people in charge of the club. .

There's football people and there's football people. Elton John and Simon Cowell are both music people but I know which one would would have the most business savvy.

 

[the streaker]

You have no idea what it was. And why wouldn't we turn that money down? We were lining up to sign Cisse at the time for an agreed £11m before the Euro became stronger and went on to pay £10.5m rising to £16.5m for Bent the next season. Replacing Jones at that point and in the situation we were in would have been nigh on impossible, we couldn't even manage reasonable loans in the January window.

Talking about the fee detracts from the point anyway - there was interest, you said there wasn't. also you are the one who is more concerned with the fee so stop using it and saying I am to boost my argument, I don't need to simply by virtue of the fact there was interest when you said there wasn't. Factually we also went onto sell him for more, so again you're proven incorrect.



I think you'll find again that Quinn said it at the time. This was when Newcastle had sold Carroll and were making late desperate bids. Regardless of what panic they were in and whether it was ever on or not, there was a bid.



You're asking for something which you know isn't going to be available, because clubs generally dont come out and announce any fee with a bid these days, so it's unlikely any quote actually exists. Sbragia saying we turned down a bid is the best you're gonna get: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/68399/Gordon-s-battle-to-outsmart-Mart



He was playing in centre midfield at the time, only a season or so after coming and his stock was high at this point. Again more interest in Keane's players.




Of course you are and all the regulars on this board know it. Same tired opinions, same arguments, same language and clouded view that you somehow think (and continually claim) is more balanced than everyone elses.



I've said countless times it was a poor signing and panic, why are you trying to make out I'm saying it wasn't to point score in this? All I'm doing is giving the circumstances at the time.


Many players don't make the step up. what on earth are you on about?



Never said any of that. You on the Sherry?



You actually suggested it was the Echo and local players in it, after previously suggesting it was just us fans, obviously trying to belittle the fact it happened and put it down to happy clapper fans or club propaganda. As for being a non entity as far as the national press were concerned, we were having a good cup run and got to the final, just been relegated too. People in and around the media were suggesting a late run, because when you're on a good run and doing well in the cup thats what happens. It's not exactly earth shattering to suggest it, but yeah you go on thinking it's as out there as David Icke.



No I didn't accept he was a laughing stock at all, he had a bad period. There's a difference. I also think Reid saved his career by virtue or playing him and in a well organised side. See there you go again, there's no inbetween with you, you simply cannot see detail.




Ron Atkinson bid it both times and said it himself.

Hysen has had a better career, but then Kevin Kilbane had a better one than Kevin Phillips, what does that prove?



Cunnington was shit, but as back up at that level was useful. Lets remember what level we're at. Delap was barely fit when here and wasn't really used by Keane, yes he played for Stoke but we all know the reason for that, or are you going to pretend hiis Premiership career wasn't soley based around his long throw?




Ferguson started off well actually, very tidy on the ball and best passer at the club by a mile. His form and fitness tailed off very quickly though. Again though I was only saying he was useful as back up, how many other Division One clubs had players they had paid £650k for as reserves at that time?

The highlighted bit is quite funny mind, seeing as you were trying to insist the likes of Brown were better than what Reid/McCarthy inherited on the basis that they'd been part of a squad that won the Championship. If I'm on rocky ground suggesting Cunnington and Ferguson were useful back up at that level, you're on even dodgier ground suggesting Brown when he was a guaranteed squad member when Keane arrived.




Melville played in excess of 100 games top flight for Fulham.

Russell only played one game for Smith IIRC and it was upfront. He broke into the side under Crosby, but started to feature more under Butcher, wide and up front often as a sub. When we sold Goodman it was to raise funds for other areas and one of the reasons for it was because we had Russell who at that point was playing upfront. Goodman was actually left out before he left, for Russell and overall Russell played most of his football upfront.

f***ing hell this post is higher than everest

There's football people and there's football people. Elton John and Simon Cowell are both music people but I know which one would would have the most business savvy.

Somebody translate this gobbly gook please..

 

[Perryqhill]

Of course you're speculating. By saying what you did you're suggesting that every club who goes down starts at a disadvantage to other clubs as they don't have the mental baggage! What a crock of shit man! You've surely run out of straws now mind

I'm speculating that we had a relegation hangover?

No I think early form and results showed it quite clearly.

And no I didn't say every side does.

Keane was left with players who had been part of a promotion side 16 month earlier. I wasn't aware I had said that McCarthys situation was worse than Keanes just that they had similair issues to deal with. It was Reids situation I had said was a worse. A lot worse at that.

Oh come on the best ones had gone, many of the more useful ones had gone. You're talking about Alnwick who played about four games in it, a permanently injured Stephen Wright, players who were mainly reserves like Neill and Danny Collins, Chris Brown a couple of good solid players at that level like Whitehead, Caldwell and an often injured Liam Lawrence and a just about knackered Stephen Elliot. So from the promotion side Poom, Myhre, Breen, Whitley, Robinson, Arca, McCartney, Stewart, Oster, Thornton, Bridges and possibly a few more I forget had gone. i.e. the core of the side.

You keep talking about how good a squad is based on the transfer fee of a player man. If McCarthys squad did cost 15m then 3.5m was spent on Matty Piper who was a crock! That doesn't benefit McCarthys situation one bit. You then talk about these players on 3k as if that's big money for a championship side. It's only ten year ago man. You also need to factor in that all these big wage earners will have had the customary 25% or whatever it is taken off due to the inevitable relegation clause. You are the one who keeps making the song and dance about how much the players cost and their respective wage. Keanes expenditure in the top flight should show that the price tag has no bearing on how good the player will end up being.
He didn't deserve dropping because we didn't have an adequate replacement but as ivecsaidcthe warning signs were there when he looked completely out depth in the derby. He went to wolves season after played a few games then ended up at Darlington I think. Like I said he was all but done in that final season here.

It was probably a lot more than £15m tbf and no I don't base how good it was on fees, I'm just pointing out how much those cost and obviously that's reflected in wages. They were better than what Keane inherited though, it's bloody obvious they were.

I was talking about Mark Maley being on £3k and Thirlwell on £8k, not first team regulars or players signed from other clubs, the obvious reason for that was because I mentioned how high the wage bill was, which you seemed to dispute.

Kubicki was getting on, but he didn't warrant dropping and he wasn't playing badly. Paul Stewart was continually picked despite underperforming too and lookingf completely out of his depth, but then he was a Reid signing and favourite.

 

[the streaker]

If ken barlow did message board threads...

 

[ilovehorswill]

Somebody translate this gobbly gook please..

you made a remark implying 'football people' shouldn't run clubs citing niall quinn as the example

simon cowell and elton john are 'music people' but one of them would make a ton of money and the other would spunk it all away............................................................................................................................................................................................................................

(Phrasing and punctuation amended)

 

[the streaker]

you made a remark implying 'football people' shouldn't run clubs citing niall quinn as the example

simon cowell and elton john are 'music people' but one of them would make a ton of money and the other would spunk it all away............................................................................................................................................................................................................................

(Phrasing and punctuation amended)

It still makes no sense whatsoever...

Neither of them are close to skint..

 

[Mrjardine]

You have no idea what it was. And why wouldn't we turn that money down? We were lining up to sign Cisse at the time for an agreed £11m before the Euro became stronger and went on to pay £10.5m rising to £16.5m for Bent the next season. Replacing Jones at that point and in the situation we were in would have been nigh on impossible, we couldn't even manage reasonable loans in the January window.

Talking about the fee detracts from the point anyway - there was interest, you said there wasn't. also you are the one who is more concerned with the fee so stop using it and saying I am to boost my argument, I don't need to simply by virtue of the fact there was interest when you said there wasn't. Factually we also went onto sell him for more, so again you're proven incorrect.



I think you'll find again that Quinn said it at the time. This was when Newcastle had sold Carroll and were making late desperate bids. Regardless of what panic they were in and whether it was ever on or not, there was a bid.



You're asking for something which you know isn't going to be available, because clubs generally dont come out and announce any fee with a bid these days, so it's unlikely any quote actually exists. Sbragia saying we turned down a bid is the best you're gonna get: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/68399/Gordon-s-battle-to-outsmart-Mart



He was playing in centre midfield at the time, only a season or so after coming and his stock was high at this point. Again more interest in Keane's players.




Of course you are and all the regulars on this board know it. Same tired opinions, same arguments, same language and clouded view that you somehow think (and continually claim) is more balanced than everyone elses.



I've said countless times it was a poor signing and panic, why are you trying to make out I'm saying it wasn't to point score in this? All I'm doing is giving the circumstances at the time.


Many players don't make the step up. what on earth are you on about?



Never said any of that. You on the Sherry?



You actually suggested it was the Echo and local players in it, after previously suggesting it was just us fans, obviously trying to belittle the fact it happened and put it down to happy clapper fans or club propaganda. As for being a non entity as far as the national press were concerned, we were having a good cup run and got to the final, just been relegated too. People in and around the media were suggesting a late run, because when you're on a good run and doing well in the cup thats what happens. It's not exactly earth shattering to suggest it, but yeah you go on thinking it's as out there as David Icke.



No I didn't accept he was a laughing stock at all, he had a bad period. There's a difference. I also think Reid saved his career by virtue or playing him and in a well organised side. See there you go again, there's no inbetween with you, you simply cannot see detail.




Ron Atkinson bid it both times and said it himself.

Hysen has had a better career, but then Kevin Kilbane had a better one than Kevin Phillips, what does that prove?



Cunnington was shit, but as back up at that level was useful. Lets remember what level we're at. Delap was barely fit when here and wasn't really used by Keane, yes he played for Stoke but we all know the reason for that, or are you going to pretend hiis Premiership career wasn't soley based around his long throw?




Ferguson started off well actually, very tidy on the ball and best passer at the club by a mile. His form and fitness tailed off very quickly though. Again though I was only saying he was useful as back up, how many other Division One clubs had players they had paid £650k for as reserves at that time?

The highlighted bit is quite funny mind, seeing as you were trying to insist the likes of Brown were better than what Reid/McCarthy inherited on the basis that they'd been part of a squad that won the Championship. If I'm on rocky ground suggesting Cunnington and Ferguson were useful back up at that level, you're on even dodgier ground suggesting Brown when he was a guaranteed squad member when Keane arrived.




Melville played in excess of 100 games top flight for Fulham.

Russell only played one game for Smith IIRC and it was upfront. He broke into the side under Crosby, but started to feature more under Butcher, wide and up front often as a sub. When we sold Goodman it was to raise funds for other areas and one of the reasons for it was because we had Russell who at that point was playing upfront. Goodman was actually left out before he left, for Russell and overall Russell played most of his football upfront.

I never said there was no interest. What I said was that the fee wouldn't be in the same region of the Bent offer. Same with Richardson I never disputed he was the subject of an enquiry just that the fee wouldn't be of the 8m region you quoted. Newspapers in guessing shocker!!!
Don't know how many more times I have to say that those two were good signings either.
The circumstances you gave didn't exist though given we had two players who have proven to be better than him as well as Keane earmarking a big name (cisse to fill the void). It was a complete waste and not exactly an exclusive one!
What players given the opportunity choose not to make the step up? I'm not aware of any.
The media didn't take a bite of notice of our cup journey until the quarter finals man and by that time our league form had long since fell away. To try and suggest in a way to back your argument up regarding what the early 90s entailed you're trying to make out that a side that finished 18th and held a highest place of 11th was the subject of some media frenzy about a playoff charge! The lengths you're going to in a vain attempt to prove a point should be applauded actually.
You said that the crowd were heckling him due to his poor displays I presume yes? You then somehow decided that he'd matured just in time for Reid arriving (very convenient) even though he'd hardly played since he'd been a target for the boo boys. You're arguments are getting more muddled by the post here!
Kilbane had a better career than Phillips? A golden boot winner, a whisker from 100 premier league goals, played at the highest level until his 40th birthday. This really is getting worse! The only box Killa ticks is a World Cup one from 2002 and if that is you're reasoning for a better career then he also had a better one than Weah and Best as well. Goodness me!
So now you're telling me that the only reason Delap played just about his whole career in the top flight was down to a long throw? What a truly ridiculous comment. Reids backup was cunnington and Keanes was Delap. Not even open to debate as to who is the better option. Also given you like talking about how much players go for then Delap had once been a 4m player before we had him. Kind of knocks cunningtons 650k out the water!
Why oh why do you keep bringing fees up man!!!! We also had a 650k forward as back up too but he was absolutely hopeless. For the last time a price tag does not always give a true indication of a players ability.
I'd suggest that brown was a better option up top than Brett Angell. Pointless comparing him to cunnington and ferguson even though he's probably had a better career than the pair.
Russell did not play the majority of his career PRIOR to Reid upfront. Simply not true. As for selling our prize centre forward to raise funds for other areas isn't it amazing that we spent the majority of that on another centre forward!
You'd actually been holding your own until this post as well. No idea what's went on here!

 

[Deleted member 31305]

Perry is spot as usual

MBH has mental problems

 

[Mrjardine]

I'm speculating that we had a relegation hangover?

No I think early form and results showed it quite clearly.

And no I didn't say every side does.




Oh come on the best ones had gone, many of the more useful ones had gone. You're talking about Alnwick who played about four games in it, a permanently injured Stephen Wright, players who were mainly reserves like Neill and Danny Collins, Chris Brown a couple of good solid players at that level like Whitehead, Caldwell and an often injured Liam Lawrence and a just about knackered Stephen Elliot. So from the promotion side Poom, Myhre, Breen, Whitley, Robinson, Arca, McCartney, Stewart, Oster, Thornton, Bridges and possibly a few more I forget had gone. i.e. the core of the side.



It was probably a lot more than £15m tbf and no I don't base how good it was on fees, I'm just pointing out how much those cost and obviously that's reflected in wages. They were better than what Keane inherited though, it's bloody obvious they were.

I was talking about Mark Maley being on £3k and Thirlwell on £8k, not first team regulars or players signed from other clubs, the obvious reason for that was because I mentioned how high the wage bill was, which you seemed to dispute.

Kubicki was getting on, but he didn't warrant dropping and he wasn't playing badly. Paul Stewart was continually picked despite underperforming too and lookingf completely out of his depth, but then he was a Reid signing and favourite.

Lawrence and Elliott who have went on to play god knows how many games after us in their careers yet they were completely broken for Keane? He had at least half a dozen players who knew what it was to get out of that league which isnt a bad starting point especially when it's coupled with a very healthy championship budget.
His initial squad probably was stronger than Keanes but it still wasn't ideal and he had next to no money to spend either which kind of makes it more of a level playing field.
Kubicki Shouldbt have been dropped but he was showing signs of decline. Paul Stewart held the ball up quite well and given how direct we were he was the best option given Quinns injury. Neither Bridges or Russell could have done the job Stewart did although he really wasn't the answer. Quinns injury probably cost us our premier league status that season.

 

[Perryqhill]

I never said there was no interest. What I said was that the fee wouldn't be in the same region of the Bent offer. Same with Richardson I never disputed he was the subject of an enquiry just that the fee wouldn't be of the 8m region you quoted. Newspapers in guessing shocker!!!

You said :

The fact of the matter is that nobody Keane signed was ever really courted by anybody for that situation to arise so you are basically just making things up to suit yet again.

A quote from Sbragia about Richardson bid being turned down and the Jones interest from Spurs on several occasions now shows that statement to be untrue. You can dispute the fee's as long as you like, it doesn't make any difference.

The circumstances you gave didn't exist though given we had two players who have proven to be better than him as well as Keane earmarking a big name (cisse to fill the void). It was a complete waste and not exactly an exclusive one!

The two players even now aren't proven to be better than him and certainly weren't at that point. Like I said it was a poor buy and panic, but whereas I look at the situation at the time, you simply look at the end result.

What players given the opportunity choose not to make the step up? I'm not aware of any.

Again I never said that. I said that some don't make the step up, not that they don't want to.

The media didn't take a bite of notice of our cup journey until the quarter finals man and by that time our league form had long since fell away. To try and suggest in a way to back your argument up regarding what the early 90s entailed you're trying to make out that a side that finished 18th and held a highest place of 11th was the subject of some media frenzy about a playoff charge! The lengths you're going to in a vain attempt to prove a point should be applauded actually.

It's a shame your memory has given up on you or maybe it's being selective, but the form of Malcom Crosby's side was allover the back pages (back when the tabloids had regional variations - maybe they still do) and programmes like Saint And Greavsie were on, of course with Football Focus etc. We had just been relegated, we'd been expected to come back up anyway. Of course things got bigger as we progressed, but we'd been making news all season sacking managers, appointing caretakers, selling Marco, Signing Beagrie, Byrne and Byrne himself was a headline maker.

You said that the crowd were heckling him due to his poor displays I presume yes? You then somehow decided that he'd matured just in time for Reid arriving (very convenient) even though he'd hardly played since he'd been a target for the boo boys. You're arguments are getting more muddled by the post here!

I said in one particular game over a season and a half earlier the crowd were heckling him pretty badly when playing left back. There was also an incident about two to three seasons earlier where he looked to fake injury and was taken off. The former was simply how he looked playing at left back and frustrtation at the ground at the time, the latter was bloody bad form, which he'd recovered well before Reid came in - you're talking a difference of at least two seasons and countless appearances here and there, not a long spell of form.

Kilbane had a better career than Phillips? A golden boot winner, a whisker from 100 premier league goals, played at the highest level until his 40th birthday. This really is getting worse! The only box Killa ticks is a World Cup one from 2002 and if that is you're reasoning for a better career then he also had a better one than Weah and Best as well. Goodness me!

More games top flight, more years top flight, more international caps, World Cup final regular, European and CL appearances, many of which were won when Phillips had dropped down to level two whilst he should still have been in his prime. It's the kinda bullshit you're claiming on players Keane was left with (with actually more substance even if it's untrue), even though some were complete shite by then.

So now you're telling me that the only reason Delap played just about his whole career in the top flight was down to a long throw? What a truly ridiculous comment. Reids backup was cunnington and Keanes was Delap.

Delaps career at Stoke was entirely down to his long throw and no he didn't play just about his whole career in the top flight or anything close to it, when a player of his quality would have been Championship form most of his career without it. Yes he was a better player than Cunnington, but it's not as simple as you're suggesting. Cunnington was almost frozen out completely by then, probably more in line with someone like Tommy Miller under Keane and had a similar non existent playing style.

I'd suggest that brown was a better option up top than Brett Angell. Pointless comparing him to cunnington and ferguson even though he's probably had a better career than the pair.

I'd suggest that Brett Angell's record pissed allover Brown's at that level and that Angell whilst similar in style (i,e, big and gangly) was coming off the back of a broken leg and six months out on arrival and never really given a chance. I wouldn't say he was a good player, but he outscored Brown at just about every level he played.

Russell did not play the majority of his career PRIOR to Reid upfront. Simply not true. As for selling our prize centre forward to raise funds for other areas isn't it amazing that we spent the majority of that on another centre forward!

I said he played most of his Sunderland career up front and a chunk of it prior to Reid, you said he played NONE. So actually in his debut under Smith he did play up front, under Crosby he played a few games up front but didn't play much at all, under Butcher he mainly played wide and as a sub upfront. Under Buxton he started as a forward, played wide for a while and then played centrally and wide. Prior to Angell coming in and both Gray, Russell misfiring we also brought Paul Williams in on loan before we eventually signed Angell, but Russ had certainly been playing up front.

Goodman was sold in 94, Scott was signed in 94. Agnew was signed in early 95. Clearly at that time it was viewed that we could do without Goodman and invest the funds elsewhere. Angell was signed on the 95 March transfer deadline, the rumour at the time was that it wasn't even Buxton's signing and that Murray had panicked at us going into a relegation battle with a struggling side and missfiring strikers. Clearly whichever way you look at it signing another striker after other positions and at least six months after selling the striker showed we were trying to strengthen other areas first.

Lawrence and Elliott who have went on to play god knows how many games after us in their careers yet they were completely broken for Keane? He had at least half a dozen players who knew what it was to get out of that league which isnt a bad starting point especially when it's coupled with a very healthy championship budget.
His initial squad probably was stronger than Keanes but it still wasn't ideal and he had next to no money to spend either which kind of makes it more of a level playing field.
Kubicki Shouldbt have been dropped but he was showing signs of decline. Paul Stewart held the ball up quite well and given how direct we were he was the best option given Quinns injury. Neither Bridges or Russell could have done the job Stewart did although he really wasn't the answer. Quinns injury probably cost us our premier league status that season.

They did, but whilst Lawrence went onto Stoke and completely recovered his form (maybe he'd have done that here but the video ruined it for him), Elliott scored a few goals for us that season, but never looked the player he had and a promising career filtered down the leagues. He scored 15 goals in the league first season here, but has never scored more than 8 league goals in a season since and has spent the majority of his career in the SPL.

McCarthy's initial squad wasn't 'probably' stronger than Keane's it was miles stronger. Realistically McCarthy didn't need money to spend as the squad he had was that big. One or two signings and many younger lads looking to prove theirselves meant any relegation hangover was quickly forgotten. Even his side struggled first few games though until Breen was in and up to speed. And why do you keep ranting on about players who had previously got out of the division? It barely matters a jot when they've just been promoted and had their arses handed to them week in week out, some never recover.

Paul Stewart was shite, he was playing up front on his own for the majority of the time, who was he going to hold the ball up for - Ball and Bracewell. Out of our options at the time he was probably the worst one for the role, he should have been partnered more often by one of the younger lads, then it may have made sense, because Quinn and Stewart wouldn't have done owt either. Noticably Stewart played for Stoke the next season and is seen as one of their worst players ever and he was only 30/31. The season after he was at Workinton, I think that says it all.