Is feminism sexist?

[not spavin]

What I don't understand is that you seem to view maternity leave as some sort of wonderful holiday. I'm sure some women do think of it as that but others could look at it as a year out that is likely to damage their career. Women who earn more or equal to their partners may be happy to split or give up the leave. My friend is a doctor and she has to pay for someone to cover her mat leave so it's costing both of them a fortune.

Also, some women might actually like to work.

I'm unsure where you get that idea from. It's certainly not from anything I've wrote, or anything I think.

Raising a kid is hard work. I have one, I know. The question is whether you get your fulfilment from that, or from a career.

If a woman is career-focussed and wants her husband to become the stay-at-home parent, that's a matter for them. As you point out, men have traditionally has fewer opportunities to do that, but that's due to change next year. The rights of the dad have been impinged to date - there's nothing stopping a woman from rejecting maternity leave entirely, outside personal circumstances. And certainly there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the stigma around being a stay-at-home dad has largely disappeared.

Some women will feel that they're forced to compromise their career. Some men will feel that they're forced to compromise their family time. Maternity leave is not a wonderful holiday, but then neither's working long hours on no sleep, and not seeing your child from Sunday evening to Saturday morning. I can say that from experience. It's all compromise, and if that compromise is forced on either the man or the woman against their will then that's a factor of an unhealthy balance in a relationship.

The fact is that, if someone chooses to devote time to their family at the expense of the career, their career will suffer. That's not a male / female thing - or at least it shouldn't be. It's a parent / not parent thing. None of us have to have kids.

 

[HellsBells]

I'm unsure where you get that idea from. It's certainly not from anything I've wrote, or anything I think.

Raising a kid is hard work. I have one, I know. The question is whether you get your fulfilment from that, or from a career.

If a woman is career-focussed and wants her husband to become the stay-at-home parent, that's a matter for them. As you point out, men have traditionally has fewer opportunities to do that, but that's due to change next year. The rights of the dad have been impinged to date - there's nothing stopping a woman from rejecting maternity leave entirely, outside personal circumstances. And certainly there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the stigma around being a stay-at-home dad has largely disappeared.

Some women will feel that they're forced to compromise their career. Some men will feel that they're forced to compromise their family time. Maternity leave is not a wonderful holiday, but then neither's working long hours on no sleep, and not seeing your child from Sunday evening to Saturday morning. I can say that from experience. It's all compromise, and if that compromise is forced on either the man or the woman against their will then that's a factor of an unhealthy balance in a relationship.

The fact is that, if someone chooses to devote time to their family at the expense of the career, their career will suffer. That's not a male / female thing - or at least it shouldn't be. It's a parent / not parent thing. None of us have to have kids.

Sorry Spav, I think it was your "Be interesting to see if women are willing to" comment that made me think you thought women would not want to give up mat leave because it was assumed to be "easy".

I'd love to see more men take mat leave and spread the family responsibilities across both genders. That can only be a good thing for everyone.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

Who ever let them out the kitchen needs a kicking

 

[WheyHey]

I was thinking about this thread last night and I remembered an 'In Our Time' broadcast when Melvyn was joined by Germaine Greer and Helena Cronin. Yes I'm sad but I rememered it because as a fan of the programe it's the only one I've ever had to turn off. Sure enough it's online so I listened again last night. LOL

Poor Melvyn just sits back as the lasses get rove reet into each other

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00545b0

 

[not spavin]

Sorry Spav, I think it was your "Be interesting to see if women are willing to" comment that made me think you thought women would not want to give up mat leave because it was assumed to be "easy".

I'd love to see more men take mat leave and spread the family responsibilities across both genders. That can only be a good thing for everyone.

OK - I can see why you might've thought that.

What'll be interesting is if women will feel comfortable in saying "I'll now prioritise career over family", having (effectively) been given the choice for the first time. It could feel like quite a selfish thing to do - it isn't selfish, of course, but guilt is a huge part of parenting generally.

I agree that a move towards a broader gender spread can only be a good thing - everyone wins. I think we seem to have broadly the same view on this - it's funny how these debates can get adversarial without either side intending it.

 

[HellsBells]

OK - I can see why you might've thought that.

What'll be interesting is if women will feel comfortable in saying "I'll now prioritise career over family", having (effectively) been given the choice for the first time. It could feel like quite a selfish thing to do - it isn't selfish, of course, but guilt is a huge part of parenting generally.

I agree that a move towards a broader gender spread can only be a good thing - everyone wins. I think we seem to have broadly the same view on this - it's funny how these debates can get adversarial without either side intending it.

Totally agree. Likewise it will probably feel wrong for a bloke to prioritise family over career, which is really sad.

 

[pillars of hercules]

32 pages - none of which I'm going to read because there is NO story here. It's a harmless t-shirt that is bland, slightly clever and harms or offends absolutely no-one whatsoever.

Apart from the people working in the sweahtshop

 

[Deleted member 14766]

Apart from the people working in the sweahtshop

So there are 32 pages of people getting riled about sweatshop manufacturing of t-shirts? That's a rather unusual focus for the SMB in my experience.

 

[pillars of hercules]

So there are 32 pages of people getting riled about sweatshop manufacturing of t-shirts? That's a rather unusual focus for the SMB in my experience.

Na just think it shows the hypocrisy of some pressure groups. The t shirts are supposed to promote equality but some poor souls (probably women and kids) will be getting exploited for it.

 

[lord of light]

Na just think it shows the hypocrisy of some pressure groups. The t shirts are supposed to promote equality but some poor souls (probably women and kids) will be getting exploited for it.

I bought a tee shirt the other day that was made in a sweat shop by children - my girlfriend was disgusted she said it was terrible - i said come on give them a chance theyre only 9 they did their best!! no pleasing some

 

[Keawyeds]

As potentially the only sociologist on here, it took a long time for feminism to get off the ground. Bear in mind the fact that Marx, Engels et al were probably a long time dead before the feminist sociology movement took off.
There has been feminism around for generations, but until you get to the likes of Grace Davie (IIRC) and her wave, there was nothing but a lot of dead white males.

Seems fair to redress the balance

 

[lord of light]

As potentially the only sociologist on here, it took a long time for feminism to get off the ground. Bear in mind the fact that Marx, Engels et al were probably a long time dead before the feminist sociology movement took off.
There has been feminism around for generations, but until you get to the likes of Grace Davie (IIRC) and her wave, there was nothing but a lot of dead white males.

Seems fair to redress the balance

I think you meant Grace Darling and her wave!

 

[Hugh Gains]

Any male with a modicum of self respect would refuse to wear that T-Shirt.

 

[pillars of hercules]

Any male with a modicum of self respect would refuse to wear that T-Shirt.

What if it was going to get you a shag?

 

[lord of light]

What if it was going to get you a shag?

itd only be off a elvis lookalikee lezza!!!!!!

 

[CatRyan]

I'm not being funny but most of them were harmless comments acknowledging the bird's beauty.

no, you're not being "funny" you're being a "misogynist"

in other news, the claims that the t-shirts were made immorally have now been refuted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2820853/T-shirt-sweatshop-claims-refuted.html

Not kept up with the thread, but for those of you who still need a bit of persuasion (last time I looked) (@lordy @dangermows @Her Ivory Tower etc)

I hope this posts...