Is feminism sexist?

[LeicesterMackem]

The roles are not equal. It was unskilled checkout staff (there is no skill in sliding packets of fishcakes over a light) versus skilled distribution and warehouse staff who had HGV, Forklift, Manual Handing etc.

A brain surgeon cannot perform operations unless his instruments are clean. Equal value to the business. Should the man who slides trays in and out of an Autoclave be paid the same as the brain surgeon?

Is the man who slides the trays in and out performing a role of similar value to the brain surgeon? It's a role that has value, but it isn't similar. It's not possible to delineate every single skill and award pay on that basis, so you would place skills along a spectrum and group them together - it's why employers have pay grades on a sliding scale.

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to learn how to lift a heavy box or drive a forklift or scan some shopping. So the skills the checkout women have (is checkout the only thing they do - most will have other roles) could be grouped as being similar to fork lift drivers, and be deemed to be of equal value to the company - so they could be placed in the same grade. The man who trains the fork lift drivers would be deemed to be of more value and have higher skills and so justifiably get paid more.

 

[G Force]

Ohh FFS man, don't mention squirrels!!

The little bastards

 

[not spavin]

The Mirror and Telegraph are much closer to the BBC version.

“Our investigations suggest that the jobs are pretty much the same, in that warehouse staff are responsible for taking items off shelves, putting them on pallets and loading them into lorries.
“In the supermarket, they do the reverse: taking the pallets off the lorries, unstacking them and putting the items on the shelves."

The Mail says that the warehouse jobs require forklift qualifications but the only actual quote from Asda is: "A firm of no-win, no-fee lawyers is hoping to challenge our award-winning reputation as an equal opportunities employer.
"We do not discriminate and are very proud of our record in this area which, if it comes to it, we will robustly defend."

The quote from the solicitor sounds quite reasonable if it is the case. The only source trying to suggest it's checkout workers wanting equal pay to HGV and forklift drivers is the Mail.

They're not the same though, are they?

A shelf stacker put beans on a shelf marked 'beans'. They do this in a warm supermarket, and it takes as long as it takes.

Someone working in a distribution centre picks and packs products under bigger time constraints, with no margin for error. They do this in a noisy, often cold distribution centre.

The shelf stacker would require training to work in a distribution centre, but the opposite is not true. Jobs in distribution centres are available to everyone.

Bin men earn shit money for hard work, and they're nearly always men. Secretaries employed by the same councils earn better money for easier work, and they're nearly always women. Is that sexism, or simply market forces?

 

[LeicesterMackem]

The article I read made it clear that it was skilled distribution workers not shelf stackers and it made clear that the skills required for the roles are different; warehouse workers were trained in how to use a forklift truck and health and safety regulations. It also said that the checkout female/male ratio was 60/40.

You'd be trained in H&S regulations regarding checkouts as well. As for forklift driving - not exactly F1 is it?

 

[Her Ivory Tower]

The Mirror and Telegraph are much closer to the BBC version.

“Our investigations suggest that the jobs are pretty much the same, in that warehouse staff are responsible for taking items off shelves, putting them on pallets and loading them into lorries.
“In the supermarket, they do the reverse: taking the pallets off the lorries, unstacking them and putting the items on the shelves."

The Mail says that the warehouse jobs require forklift qualifications but the only actual quote from Asda is: "A firm of no-win, no-fee lawyers is hoping to challenge our award-winning reputation as an equal opportunities employer.
"We do not discriminate and are very proud of our record in this area which, if it comes to it, we will robustly defend."

The quote from the solicitor sounds quite reasonable if it is the case. The only source trying to suggest it's checkout workers wanting equal pay to HGV and forklift drivers is the Mail.

Whichever is correct it's not an issue of gender in my opinion, given that both sexes doing the same job are paid they same and 40% of the lower paid checkout staff are men. It's a skill issue.

 

[not spavin]

Whichever is correct it's not an issue of gender in my opinion, given that both sexes doing the same job are paid they same and 40% of the lower paid checkout staff are men. It's a skill issue.

Presumably more women work on checkouts because it's more conducive to part time work. The idea the pay gap is influenced by gender is preposterous.

 

[Her Ivory Tower]

Is the man who slides the trays in and out performing a role of similar value to the brain surgeon? It's a role that has value, but it isn't similar. It's not possible to delineate every single skill and award pay on that basis, so you would place skills along a spectrum and group them together - it's why employers have pay grades on a sliding scale.

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to learn how to lift a heavy box or drive a forklift or scan some shopping. So the skills the checkout women have (is checkout the only thing they do - most will have other roles) could be grouped as being similar to fork lift drivers, and be deemed to be of equal value to the company - so they could be placed in the same grade. The man who trains the fork lift drivers would be deemed to be of more value and have higher skills and so justifiably get paid more.

Regardless, to tout the Asda issue as one of gender is disingenuous and misleading. It is quite clearly about skill.

You'd be trained in H&S regulations regarding checkouts as well. As for forklift driving - not exactly F1 is it?

If it's so easy, why doesn't Mr or Mrs sit out their arse at a checkout moving one arm apply to take their forklift test and go and work in the warehouse? They would not even register the difference, because the roles and skills required are identical according to you.

 

[HellsBells]

Presumably more women work on checkouts because it's more conducive to part time work. The idea the pay gap is influenced by gender is preposterous.

But why do more women need part time work? That's the fundamental issue. If men were as likely to work part time as women are, then it wouldn't be a gender issue.

It's a gender issue because more women work part time to look after the kids. Stereotypical roles that need to be changed.

They're not the same though, are they?

A shelf stacker put beans on a shelf marked 'beans'. They do this in a warm supermarket, and it takes as long as it takes.

Someone working in a distribution centre picks and packs products under bigger time constraints, with no margin for error. They do this in a noisy, often cold distribution centre.

The shelf stacker would require training to work in a distribution centre, but the opposite is not true. Jobs in distribution centres are available to everyone.

Bin men earn shit money for hard work, and they're nearly always men. Secretaries employed by the same councils earn better money for easier work, and they're nearly always women. Is that sexism, or simply market forces?

If it's that easy why aren't more men secretaries? Surely they'd be mugs to be bin men over secretaries?

 

[Her Ivory Tower]

But why do more women need part time work? That's the fundamental issue. If men were as likely to work part time as women are, then it wouldn't be a gender issue.

It's a gender issue because more women work part time to look after the kids. Stereotypical roles that need to be changed.

But how is that Asda's fault? Why should they be sued because of society's gender stereotypes. Unless they actively prevent men from apply for part time roles or women from working in the warehouse - and there is no suggestion of that allegation in this claim. As far as I can see they offer jobs to all with no gender bar to application placed by them, with pay graded according to skill or job difficulty.

It's compensation culture gone mad and worse, as in this case, it's an ambulance chasing style no win no fee law firm exploiting a law for their own gain.

With the increase in self service tills and the potential cost of the claim - the legal firm want a class action of over 100k employees with 6 years back dated pay - Asda will probably have to cut their workforce so they won't have jobs anyway.

 

[not spavin]

But why do more women need part time work? That's the fundamental issue. If men were as likely to work part time as women are, then it wouldn't be a gender issue.

It's a gender issue because more women work part time to look after the kids. Stereotypical roles that need to be changed.

For that to happen, women would have to surrender their automatic right to maternity leave.

It's not a gender issue, it's a parental issue.

If it's that easy why aren't more men secretaries? Surely they'd be mugs to be bin men over secretaries?

Because being a secretary requires s specific skillset, just as working in a distribution centre requires a specific skillset.

 

[LeicesterMackem]

Regardless, to tout the Asda issue as one of gender is disingenuous and misleading. It is quite clearly about skill.



If it's so easy, why doesn't Mr or Mrs sit out their arse at a checkout moving one arm apply to take their forklift test and go and work in the warehouse? They would not even register the difference, because the roles and skills required are identical according to you.

I din't say they were identical. I said you could make a case that they were of equal value and be placed in the same pay grade.

 

[Thurston]

Is the man who slides the trays in and out performing a role of similar value to the brain surgeon? It's a role that has value, but it isn't similar. It's not possible to delineate every single skill and award pay on that basis, so you would place skills along a spectrum and group them together - it's why employers have pay grades on a sliding scale.

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to learn how to lift a heavy box or drive a forklift or scan some shopping. So the skills the checkout women have (is checkout the only thing they do - most will have other roles) could be grouped as being similar to fork lift drivers, and be deemed to be of equal value to the company - so they could be placed in the same grade. The man who trains the fork lift drivers would be deemed to be of more value and have higher skills and so justifiably get paid more.

Wrong question. Could the brain surgeon do the same job without him? One of the biggest failings of the capitalist system is the assigned subjective value on individual roles and functions often within allotted time-scales, rather than placing the value on the worker themself and the value they offer to what they do and the people around them. But hey.

 

[Hammer]

They're not the same though, are they?

I've never worked at Asda, I don't know exactly what each role entails. I suspect it's somewhere between the complete disconnect that you are suggesting and the complete parity that the solicitor is. Luckily someone better qualified to judge will make the ultimate decision.

Either way it is disingenuous to suggest that this is simply female checkout staff wanting more money because jobs done by proportionally more males get paid more.

Whichever is correct it's not an issue of gender in my opinion, given that both sexes doing the same job are paid they same and 40% of the lower paid checkout staff are men.

I'd agree with that.

 

[Pants]

But why do more women need part time work? That's the fundamental issue. If men were as likely to work part time as women are, then it wouldn't be a gender issue.

It's a gender issue because more women work part time to look after the kids. Stereotypical roles that need to be changed.

Why do they need to 'be changed' though? Shirley it's up to individual women to decide if they want to be homemakers or breadwinners and pursue that life. If a significant majority of women choose this stereotypical role, that's their choice which they're entitled to. It would be wrong to force people into a role they don't want, just to challenge a stereotype.

 

[not spavin]

I've never worked at Asda, I don't know exactly what each role entails. I suspect it's somewhere between the complete disconnect that you are suggesting and the complete parity that the solicitor is. Luckily someone better qualified to judge will make the ultimate decision.

Either way it is disingenuous to suggest that this is simply female checkout staff wanting more money because jobs done by proportionally more males get paid more.

I have. I used to work in ASDA's HQ, and that entailed working in stores and distribution centres.

This is checkout staff wanting something for nothing.

 

[Muppet]

For that to happen, women would have to surrender their automatic right to maternity leave.

It's not a gender issue, it's a parental issue.

Maternity leave is only 39 weeks and once it's over and both parents are working, why can't both parents need part time work? Why is it predominantly women?

Plus, as of next year, both parents can share the "maternity" leave so I'm sure we'll see a huge raft of blokes needing to find hours to fit around their children too...

Why do they need to 'be changed' though? Shirley it's up to individual women to decide if they want to be homemakers or breadwinners and pursue that life. If a significant majority of women choose this stereotypical role, that's their choice which they're entitled to. It would be wrong to force people into a role they don't want, just to challenge a stereotype.

Shouldn't fathers get a choice too? Or an alternative question is shouldn't fathers have to make a choice too?

 

[Her Ivory Tower]

But why do more women need part time work? That's the fundamental issue. If men were as likely to work part time as women are, then it wouldn't be a gender issue.

It's a gender issue because more women work part time to look after the kids. Stereotypical roles that need to be changed.

Apply this to a same sex couple with kids where one wants to work part time and it becomes quite clear that it's not a gender issue at all. It's simply the sacrifice that you make as a couple if you want children. One works full time, one works part time. Or you both work full time and pay for childcare. Whatever life choices you make, Asda should not have to pay.

 

[Pants]

Maternity leave is only 39 weeks and once it's over and both parents are working, why can't both parents need part time work? Why is it predominantly women?

Plus, as of next year, both parents can share the "maternity" leave so I'm sure we'll see a huge raft of blokes needing to find hours to fit around their children too...



Shouldn't fathers get a choice too? Or an alternative question is shouldn't fathers have to make a choice too?

Yes of course, but you can't become a father without meeting the mother first (and vice versa)! Important stuff like 'hopes and desires for the rest of your life' should be sorted out before kids/marriage.

 

[not spavin]

Maternity leave is only 39 weeks and once it's over and both parents are working, why can't both parents need part time work? Why is it predominantly women?

Plus, as of next year, both parents can share the "maternity" leave so I'm sure we'll see a huge raft of blokes needing to find hours to fit around their children too...

You'd have to ask women that.

Maybe women want to? Maybe mothers value family over career?

And as for your last point, the instance of 'stay at home dads' has doubled since 2001. So yes, I'm sure we'll see a huge raft of blokes needing to find hours to fit around their children. Unless you were being sarcastic, and assuming that 'blokes' won't without any evidence to back up your assumption.

 

[Hammer]

This is checkout staff wanting something for nothing.

Every actual quote from the solicitors suggests the people involved are those doing the manual loading/shelf stacking jobs.