Israeli on Sky News

[st joes lad]

Even if hamas cease to ezcist there wont be a 2 state solution,this right wing coalition in Israel doesnt want a peace agreement

 

[sketchy]

why will it continue to shrink? The Palestinians control Gaza on the ground and Israel are not trying to reclaim any part of Gaza as far as I am aware.

Look at a map. Look at what has happened decade after decade. They control Gaza but they don't control what manages to come into Gaza. Now with water supply and a power station being hit they are in an even worse position.

 

[Deleted member 25315]

Israel did not start this war. Hamas did. The shelling of innocent civilians was unprovoked but is typical of Hamas war mongering. Of course Israel wants peace. No shelling no war and no killing of innocent civilians. As for a two state solution - the Palestinians have Gaza; a de facto Palestine recognised by the UN. They have what they want. They should let it be and move on.

In 2012, the UN General Assembly "accorded Palestine non-Member Observer State status in the United Nations". This can clearly be moved on to member status. The Palestinians can then move on to negotiating an end to the naval blockade, free movement of its people, in exchange for recognising Israel's right to exist in peace.

The reality of politics will pervade and the Palestinians need to renounce violence and start 50 years of peaceful co-existence and politicking rather than a continued cycle of violence in which they lose massively.


They have Gaza man. It has nearly 2m people in it. They have one of the highest birth rates in the world. No wonder its massively over crowded. Maybe some of the Palestinians can come over here - every fucker else does!

Still doesn't get it.

Thankfully your views or overwhelmingly in the minority on this thread. A few callous, uniformed individuals who refuse to accept the war crimes that are occurring as we speak.

 

[Shaw tarse]

Israel did not start this war. Hamas did. The shelling of innocent civilians was unprovoked but is typical of Hamas war mongering. Of course Israel wants peace. No shelling no war and no killing of innocent civilians. As for a two state solution - the Palestinians have Gaza; a de facto Palestine recognised by the UN. They have what they want. They should let it be and move on.

In 2012, the UN General Assembly "accorded Palestine non-Member Observer State status in the United Nations". This can clearly be moved on to member status. The Palestinians can then move on to negotiating an end to the naval blockade, free movement of its people, in exchange for recognising Israel's right to exist in peace.

The reality of politics will pervade and the Palestinians need to renounce violence and start 50 years of peaceful co-existence and politicking rather than a continued cycle of violence in which they lose massively.


They have Gaza man. It has nearly 2m people in it. They have one of the highest birth rates in the world. No wonder its massively over crowded. Maybe some of the Palestinians can come over here - every fucker else does!

Surprised it took you so long

 

[sketchy]

Still doesn't get it.

Thankfully your views or overwhelmingly in the minority on this thread. A few callous, uniformed individuals who refuse to accept the war crimes that are occurring as we speak.

I honestly can't understand how someone can look at the situation like this.

 

[The Omega Man]

Only if Israel let it. They haven't.

I was basically of the view that both were at fault as late as yesterday, and obviously they are to some extent, but having read up on it the past few days it's pretty clear that Palestine can only progress as society in as much as Israel support that, and they manifestly don't.

This is very good http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/o...-and-israels-war-with-hamas-in-gaza.html?_r=0

"The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.

This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe."

the solution to all of this is for Hamas to be removed by the Palestinians from any vestige of power and a genuine peace deal agreed. The Palestinians should have what they hold and begin a political solution as I've said earlier. The two sides have been at war for decades now and it will be a long political process to make Gaza peaceful and perhaps additional pieces of land - negotiated - with Israel possible.

War has produced nothing but misery for the Palestinians and we can safely say that armed conflict will not provide a solution to this enduring problem. I'll repeat that this political process has to start at some point - a bit like it did in N Ireland. The result for N Ireland was not the unification of all Ireland but a step towards peace in N Ireland and a degree of normality with the British Government and Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein has not achieved its goal but what it was savvy enough to recognise, eventually, was that politics not war will get them to where they want to be in the end. The process for Sinn Fein will be slow but I wouldnt bet against a United Ireland in the next 50 to 100 years.

 

[Randy Ostrich]

Wow...PR being spun. There's a new one.

The problem with this thread is that there is no acceptance of the fact that Israel is not about to hand any land back and that the Palestinians have lost. They have lost for a couple of reasons:

1. They are incredibly weak in the face of overwhelming superior military might.
2. Credible international opinion is visibly absent and anyway the US etc. is too busy demonising Putin.

The Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas, place Fatah at its head and negotiate what it can from Israel. Fatah need to come out publically and say that Israel has a right to exist, renounce the violence and leave it at that.

There will be no Palestine, except the one that can be made in a peaceful Gaza, a one that does not threaten Israel. Until then I'm afraid that the genocide being committed in Gaza will continue, a one that will never be punished in international courts.

I do believe that you are approaching this from a position of 'pragmatic utilitarianism' and I don't think anyone could disagree that your solution would result in the fewest casualties.

I hope you won't mind an observation that although you say your interest is in preventing more deaths, it does seem to be coming from a very pro-Israeli viewpoint. their position seems to revolve around a cultural paranoia that has been repeated on this thread: that they are surrounded by countries waiting to 'obliterate' them. Yet you also assert that Israel is going nowhere thanks to the backing of the US and the indifference of the major powers. You really can't have it both ways. You yourself want the discussion to be grounded in reality. The reality is the existence of Israel is in no danger. Fatah have already recognised Israel and Hamas have said they would if Israel complies with UN resolutions. They also removed the clause from their charter that called for the destruction of Israel. As you say, Israel has the superior military thanks to being the largest recipient of US foreign aid. You really think Iran or Syria wants to risk a US reprisal? I can understand the feeling of being under threat - equally I can see how that impression strengthens the hand of the Israeli right wing.

I just don't see your solution as lasting when you only have one side making concessions.

War has produced nothing but misery for the Palestinians and we can safely say that armed conflict will not provide a solution to this enduring problem. I'll repeat that this political process has to start at some point - a bit like it did in N Ireland. The result for N Ireland was not the unification of all Ireland but a step towards peace in N Ireland and a degree of normality with the British Government and Sinn Fein.

Do you think that political process would have existed had the British government launched air strikes on northern ireland following every IRA bomb?

 

[The Omega Man]

I honestly can't understand how someone can look at the situation like this.

No one is not acknowledging what is going on. why do you continue to take things out of context? What I'm saying is that the reality of politics means that no one will be prosecuted for these "war crimes" because the international community that matter politically quite simply wont do anything. some of you are massively naive here.

do you seriously expect the Israeli's to go to the Hague? wont happen man. Wake up and face reality.

 

[st joes lad]

I honestly can't understand how someone can look at the situation like this.

Because hes mad or pissed

 

[The Omega Man]

Do you think that political process would have existed had the British government launched air strikes on northern ireland following every IRA bomb?

I have no idea.

Because hes mad or pissed

You have not read one word I have posted or countered any of my postings. You clearly seem to think that this palestinian flag waving is going to get somewhere when I have explained rationally why it will not. I have stated the reality of the situation.

 

[sketchy]

No one is not acknowledging what is going on. why do you continue to take things out of context? What I'm saying is that the reality of politics means that no one will be prosecuted for these "war crimes" because the international community that matter politically quite simply wont do anything. some of you are massively naive here.

do you seriously expect the Israeli's to go to the Hague? wont happen man. Wake up and face reality.

What have I took out of context? All I have said is I can't understand how you can think like that.

It is a lot more likely now that they will be than say 5 years ago when they were also commiting war crimes and I think public pressure due to awareness is responsible for that.

Your argument of it won't happen and face reality is what all of these peadophiles would have thought between themselves but as we can see due to public pressure they are now being held responsible.

 

[sonson]

I have no idea.


You have not read one word I have posted or countered any of my postings. You clearly seem to think that this palestinian flag waving is going to get somewhere when I have explained rationally why it will not. I have stated the reality of the situation.

Given how much of an escalation that would have been, and how long it took to get folks to the table without anything approaching that level of massacre, it's fair to say it would have taken much, much longer at least

 

[Randy Ostrich]

I have no idea.

Hypothesise - can you imagine our government shelling northern ireland and the effect on the population there?

I hope you'll reply to the rest of that post as i'd be interested in hearing your view

 

[st joes lad]

I have no idea.


You have not read one word I have posted or countered any of my postings. You clearly seem to think that this palestinian flag waving is going to get somewhere when I have explained rationally why it will not. I have stated the reality of the situation.

I have read everything you have wrote and replied to most of it

You come across as some right wing nutter, are you in the edl

 

[The Omega Man]

I just don't see your solution as lasting when you only have one side making concessions.

No one is asking for concessions. The Israeli's have what they hold and the Palestinians live where they are but in a free Gaza.

Politics is about reality not fantasy or utopia. Sometimes you start from a position of relative weakness and build your hand. This issue has the rest of humanity and time to be resolved. Draw a line in the sand, start the political process today and who knows where we might all be in say 50 years time. The first thing though is a ceasefire and both communities to be left to live in peace.

I have read everything you have wrote and replied to most of it

You come across as some right wing nutter, are you in the edl

Not worthy of a reply. you continue your insults and have added nothing of any note to this debate.

What have I took out of context? All I have said is I can't understand how you can think like that.

It is a lot more likely now that they will be than say 5 years ago when they were also commiting war crimes and I think public pressure due to awareness is responsible for that.

Your argument of it won't happen and face reality is what all of these peadophiles would have thought between themselves but as we can see due to public pressure they are now being held responsible.

what do child molestors have to do with this? there is a clear remit and will to tackle such issues but internationally there is no will at all to hold Israel to account for their actions. totally different scenarios.

 

[st joes lad]

No one is asking for concessions. The Israeli's have what they hold and the Palestinians live where they are but in a free Gaza.

Politics is about reality not fantasy or utopia. Sometimes you start from a position of relative weakness and build your hand. This issue has the rest of humanity and time to be resolved. Draw a line in the sand, start the political process today and who knows where we might all be in say 50 years time. The first thing though is a ceasefire and both communities to be left to live in peace.


Not worthy of a reply. you continue your insults and have added nothing of any note to this debate.

And you have,didnt you say Palestine would cease to excist and there wont be anymore Palestinians

 

[greedminds]

No one is asking for concessions. The Israeli's have what they hold and the Palestinians live where they are but in a free Gaza.

Politics is about reality not fantasy or utopia. Sometimes you start from a position of relative weakness and build your hand. This issue has the rest of humanity and time to be resolved. Draw a line in the sand, start the political process today and who knows where we might all be in say 50 years time. The first thing though is a ceasefire and both communities to be left to live in peace.


Not worthy of a reply. you continue your insults and have added nothing of any note to this debate.


what do child molestors have to do with this? there is a clear remit and will to tackle such issues but internationally there is no will at all to hold Israel to account for their actions. totally different scenarios.

Pillock

 

[Randy Ostrich]

No one is asking for concessions. The Israeli's have what they hold and the Palestinians live where they are but in a free Gaza.

Politics is about reality not fantasy or utopia. Sometimes you start from a position of relative weakness and build your hand. This issue has the rest of humanity and time to be resolved. Draw a line in the sand, start the political process today and who knows where we might all be in say 50 years time. The first thing though is a ceasefire and both communities to be left to live in peace.

You are. You are asking the Palestinians to forget about the settlement land stolen in the last 20 years. You are asking resonably for a ceasefire whilst ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are living under occupation and blockade. You keep trying to make a distinction between reality and fantasy. I'm afraid you are living in fantasy land if you think the Palestinians are going to agree to live in a ghetto. You are also living in a fantasy if you think Israel is in danger of obliteration.

The Palestinian people want the occupied land back - what is wrong with that?

I agree it needs a line in the sand to end the tit for tat. Imagine what would happen if Israel withdrew to the 67 borders. What power do you think ~Hamas would have then? You think the Palestinians could end this in 50 years? Israel could end this tomorrow.

 

[The Omega Man]

And you have,didnt you say Palestine would cease to excist and there wont be anymore Palestinians

Well certainly if I did say that in a previous post you will take great delight in taking my post out of context. there is pretty much no doubt about that.

 

[sketchy]

No one is asking for concessions. The Israeli's have what they hold and the Palestinians live where they are but in a free Gaza.

Politics is about reality not fantasy or utopia. Sometimes you start from a position of relative weakness and build your hand. This issue has the rest of humanity and time to be resolved. Draw a line in the sand, start the political process today and who knows where we might all be in say 50 years time. The first thing though is a ceasefire and both communities to be left to live in peace.


Not worthy of a reply. you continue your insults and have added nothing of any note to this debate.


what do child molestors have to do with this? there is a clear remit and will to tackle such issues but internationally there is no will at all to hold Israel to account for their actions. totally different scenarios.

There wasn't a remit to tackle the issues during the 70's-90's when it was happening. It was wrong then and it is wrong now, you saying Palestinians should just give up because Israel is stronger and that is reality is wrong. It is not reality.

Well certainly if I did say that in a previous post you will take great delight in taking my post out of context. there is pretty much no doubt about that.

You keep mentioning context but what exactly has been taken out of context? You said these things on a thread about Israel-Palestine conflict, what exactly can be taken out of context?